Posted on 02/24/2007 4:59:51 PM PST by stfassisi
"...and they are probably still in the process of defining themselves and clarifying their doctrine, or at least its expression."
Oh, there's no process of clarifying doctrine going on, except maybe with you guys and, interestingly, the Lutherans in Europe. There is no doubt, however, that Orthodoxy is undergoing a process of defining what it means to be Orthodox in America. For generations here it meant being Greek or Arab or Serb or Russian or whatever, rather like the ethnic nature of so many Catholic parishes into the 1980s. The parishes, while thoroughly Orthodox as a general proposition, were ethnic clubs. Being a member of the parish meant that you could still be a Greek, that you had a piece of the old country to run to in an otherwise often hostile America. On the other hand, the immigrants and their kids wanted more than anything else to be seen as Americans and to succeed here. If ever there was a group which appreciated the oppostunities presented by this country it was that bunch. But it also set up a sort of schizophrenia which resulted in an odd sort of "Greek/American" mentality which insisted on preserving hellenism in the parish while at the same time allowing all sorts of American, mostly Protestant, attitudes into the day to day life of the parish.
What we see developing today is a more and more American and very, very conservative form of Orthodoxy. The large influx of converts from white bread America plays a part in this. The large influx of former Soviet bloc immigrants into, say Greek or Antiochian parishes and the surprising number of Arab and African immigrant Orthodox showing up in Greek parishes is a major element of the change. In my parish, for example, there are 11 different ethnic groups counting the converts. We Greeks now make up just shy of 50% of the parish. The common language is English, not Greek. The common holidays are American, not Greek. So things change. Greek Orthodox becomes "Pan Orthodox". The parish becomes what it is in the old countries, not an ethnic club, but rather The Church. The new immigrants and perhaps even more so the converts, bring with them a profound commitment to traditional Orthodoxy and a respect for our old people and their struggles here both to establish the faith and make their way in a confusing foreign society. The humility of the converts in their willingness to assume a totally different way of looking at the world, to adopt and inculcate an Orthodox phronema, is a marvel to me. Both the converts and the new immigrants are an example to the more "Americanized" of us Greeks. I remember a few years back when I was president of the parish council and our metropolitan came for a visit. In my welcoming speech, I remarked that among the officers of the council, not one had a Greek surname. When he spoke, he opened his remarks by saying, "When I look out over this parish, I see the future of Orthodoxy in America." I think he's right.
As I read this post, along with the others here, I can't help but think of something my mother said for years:
"There is nothing so permanent as change."
"Change" is indicated all over the posts on this thread.
I agree with you...She wasn't looking for Jesus Christ...She was looking for a religion and a religious experience...And she found it...
The smell of incense filled the air as we entered St. Paul’s Greek Orthodox Church for the Divine Liturgy. It was the most majestic church that we had ever seen. The priest, clad in a lavish golden vestment, censed the altar as he prayed in the Sanctuary. Worshipers lit candles and kissed the icons, making the Sign of the Cross. Kerry and I sat down in silence. There was a sense of reverence here that we had never experienced before.
Compare that to this:
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
I,m glad you said this,and I hope the rest of the Orthodox churches pull out of the WCC and NCC.
This bothered me greatly when I was a Methodist. The Church I was in was heavily supportive of the NCC ,it was just another reason for me to leave .
Dear Friend, did the Orthodox Church abandon teaching against contraception?if so,when did this take place. Is there still some that hold to teaching against the use of Contraception?
You obviously know nothing about Catholicism,Brother. It is exactly the opposite of what you said.
Your statement can only be said for tepid luke warm Catholics who don,t take their faith seriously ,the same can be said for tepid Protestants who don,t take their faith seriously.
I wish you a Blessed day!
The weakening of faith and the collapse of moral values were equally disheartening. Many mainline churches, once stalwart in defense of orthodox Christian doctrine, now watered down fundamental beliefs such as the inerrancy of Scripture, the Virgin Birth, the Bodily Resurrection, and even the Divinity of Christ.
Catholicism is among the most liberal of all the churches and has certainly watered down many "fundamental beliefs," especially "the inerrancy of Scripture." Even well-known "conservative" Catholic apologists like Fr. Peter Stravinskas and Keating reject the total inerrancy of scripture. How in the world can anyone not know this? Am I the only person who has noticed this?
What is wrong with people?
Certainly there are.I still listen to some of the sermons of the late Dr Martyn LLoyd Jones. He was truly a gifted man of god.
Absolute Nonsense!
There may be INDIVIDUALS who don,t know their faith but the Churches teachings are united.
Its called the Catechism-and those who don,t follow it do it at their own risk!
You seem to have disdain for all Christians?
**With that decision made, there was nothing left to stand in my way. On April 22, 2000, at the Easter Vigil – with Kerry’s blessing and my friend Mary as my sponsor – I was welcomed into the arms of Holy Mother Church, and I received the Body and Blood of the Lord in Holy Communion.**
**On June 10th, the eve of Pentecost, in a private Mass at St. Mary’s by the Sea, Kerry was received into the Church, and we shared the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion together for the first time.**
A very moving conversion story for this husband and wife! Thanks, stfassisi!
You have evolutionists in your ping list because to the Catholic Church the inerrancy of Genesis isn't important. Do you deny this?
It is odd that there is one God, one Bible (at least there is to a Christian) but so many different beliefs.
All of us want to know that we follow God's Word but as I see it, the only way to assure that is to follow His written word. Then you get into the different interpretations by different religions. Very confusing for someone. I've finally given up on "religion" and just study scripture. I listen to different teachers and the more I study the easier it is to weed out false teaching, according to His word.
That may not be the best way to go about it but I feel it has opened my eyes and ears somewhat and if I continue to study perhaps more will be opened to me.
Your mistake is that You,re confusing Catholicism with religious fundamentalism.
So you admit my charge that the Catholic Church does not believe in the total inerrancy of Scripture, which is one of the things the author of your posted article criticized in liberal Protestant churches.
What will she do when she realizes that the "unchanging" Catholic Church has changed its interpretation of Genesis and is no different from the most radical Protestants on this issue?
If you will recall, in my initial post to this thread I highlighted the author's citing of Biblical inerrancy as one of the things she saw the Protestants rejecting and one of the reasons she was leaving them. What do you think she will do when she finds out the Catholic Church is just as bad or worse than any liberal Protestant on this issue???
Perhaps you didn't notice this passage in the article you posted???
Good post,WT. They like authority and feel secure in tradition. That way the responsibility for living the Christian life is not on them, it rests on someone higher up in the system. In the end they can say "I was just following orders"
So who's bearing false witness now???
"Dear Friend, did the Orthodox Church abandon teaching against contraception?if so,when did this take place. Is there still some that hold to teaching against the use of Contraception?"
I don't know that there was ever an official teaching on cntraception per se, though there always has been a rule against any form of abortion. My suspicion is that other than in the context of abortifacient contraception, it simply wasn't much of an issue until the ready availability of contraception. As I understand it, there was some very limited objection to it but rather quickly it was decided that it should be left to the couple and their spiritual father. You should remember that Orthodoxy looks to marital relations as something more than just an act for conceiving children. So far as I know, the foregoing is a universal Orthodox attitude towards contraception except for a few Old Calendar Greek groups which encourage huge families for the purpose of retaking Constantinople and Turkey from the Turks and reestablishing the Empire (I'm not kidding!)
Institutional loyalty is very seductive. It is one our great weaknesses. If we let others think for us we don't have to worry about being in error. After all "it's the other guys fault."
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