Posted on 02/20/2007 6:40:02 PM PST by NYer
Is that how Europe, Latin America, and the Philippines became Catholic?
The ancient liturgical churches have become purely ethnic organizations that rely on sexual reproduction to keep going. Instead of engaging in missionary activity they publish and propagate the notion that it is something to be defended against. Is it any wonder so many Protestants think that liturgical chr*stians (and Jews, for that matter) don't have a leg to stand on? They act as if to hear the Protestant message would automatically lead to conversion to Protestantism. Are the ancient religions that unsure of their message?
Are you kidding? Tens of thousands in the United States alone convert to the Catholic Church each year. Also if they were purely ethnic organizations, then why are people of multiple ethnicities part of these churches?
I am sorry that you had such a bad experience. Every large organization has some bad apples, and unfortunately they tend to influence those around them. But please don't generalize to conclude that all (or even a majority) of Catholics engage in such behavior. Our parish is full of wonderful, gentle people led by a good shepherd (even if he is a somewhat pugnacious and blunt-spoken Irishman, he has as good a heart as anyone you will ever meet.) He doesn't sugar-coat the faith, but he is full of compassion for anybody in trouble, and since he leads by example most of his flock feel the same way.
In fact, just a couple of weeks ago he organized an Interfaith Prayer service and invited all the churches within about a ten mile radius. It was a very inspiring and friendly event - attended by clergy from the local Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches (the Episcopalian was invited but didn't show up.) Everybody prayed together and had good and friendly discussions afterwards. My husband's grandfather was a Methodist minister, and it turned out that one of the Methodist preachers knew him -- it was like Old Home Week.
Missionaries should always lead by example and be gentle, and in a perfect world they would all do that. But the Church (like everywhere else in the world) is full of sinners and stumblers and tactless well-meaning people, even as I . . .
( . . . and my family is exhibit "A" for the church not depending on reproduction . . . we were Anglican/Episcopalian for 6 generations before we converted. . . and our parish is full of converts!)
I know this thread is somewhat painful to you, but I don't see this conversion story as a boast or even a result of proselytizing. It seems that Israel Zolli came to the Church as a result of a lifelong pondering and questioning and his experiences in WWII . . . not buttonholing by zealous Catholics. How he arrived at that place is, as I said before, the story of his own life, not anybody else's.
The ancient liturgical churches have become purely ethnic organizations that rely on sexual reproduction to keep going.
Are you kidding? Tens of thousands in the United States alone convert to the Catholic Church each year.
Yes, on their own initiative. While "Protestant sects" reach out to a "lost and dying world" the "one true church" thinks everyone is perfectly fine just as they are and only bigots and fanatics engage in missionary activity. Has it ever occurred to any of these birthright religions that it might be nice to be asked to join? To be treated as if one were desirable? This anti-missionary, everybody's just fine, join-us-if-you-want-to-but-you-don't-have-to attitude is absolutely absent from the "new testament" and it, more than any "statue worship" or "praying to saints" indicates a radical change in the "changeless religion."
Also if they were purely ethnic organizations, then why are people of multiple ethnicities part of these churches?
Correction: Catholic ethnicities make up the Catholic Church: Irish, Poles, Hispanics, Filipinos, French, Austrians, Italians, etc. The American Heartland Anglo-Protestant is regarded as "the oppressor" or "the enemy" (exactly as Blacks regard white or Jews regard chr*stians). The ethnic religons treat this particulare group of people like an irredeemable and undesirable culture. I suppose you think that's funny? It's one thing to be lambasted with the KKK and the Holocaust, but to be blamed for Cromwell or the Irish potato famine (by Pat Buchanan's church, no less) is absolutely maddening!
A final point: while the world is full of simple, even illiterate, Catholics, an American is expected to become an intellectual in order to convert (either a Thomistic intellectual or a higher critical intellectual). Did your original apostles demand this of their converts? Did the Catholic missionaries of former times who converted whole cultures demand it?
First World Catholicism is so different from Third World Catholicism that it's almost impossible to see them as the same religion.
And no, I never said you had said any of those things, but they have been said and will probably continue to be said.
Well, this is an imperfect world, so I don't think there's much any of us can do about that . . . other than governing ourselves . . . < peace >
Just today, Benedict XVI said the following to a group of bishops from the Umbria region of Italy:
"The Church," the Holy Father told the prelates, "has the perennial mission of spreading the light of Christ's truth that illuminates peoples, that it may shine in all areas of society. In announcing the evangelical message, all Christian communities place themselves at the service of man and of the common good. Aware of this missionary mandate, encourage the faithful entrusted to your pastoral care to continue in their efforts to permeate modern culture with the vital lifeblood of divine grace. This is certainly not an easy task, but it is indispensable."
You have noticed that there are many nominal Catholics in the first world who are not very faithful, devout or zealous Catholics. Prosperity breeds laziness and more self-reliance - a perception that God is not needed as much. That is due to human nature, not the Catholic Church, or any faith for that matter.
Well, the quote starts out good but then the Pope speaks of "permeating modern culture." I'm talking about old-fashioned proselytization. Didn't the Catholic Church used to do that, a long time ago? Why is it so opposed to it now?
And the attitudes I criticize are not those of American nominal Catholics but of "devout" (or at least serious) ones.
Do you usually eat your holy cards with ketchup? (ducks and runs)
It's probably too late now. The purpose has already been defeated.
Yes, but permeating modern culture with what? "with the vital lifeblood of divine grace." How is that achieved? By and through evangelization and conversion, not by acquiescing to the popular culture. If one is not in a state of grace, then one cannot receive and benefit from divine grace.
I, and Benedict XVI, agree with you that the first world has lost much faith as well as the intensity of the faith. That is the work of the evil one, not the Church. There are faithful Catholics out there who are evangelizing even though there actions are not well known. The One who matters knows what they are doing.
No problem.
Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread!!
Does that mean leave it alone for this particular thread?
You're the Moderator; I'm simply a poster. You decide how it should be handled. It doesn't bother me one way or the other.
The caucus has already been disturbed on this thread so I'll let it be. But in the future, if you'd like to limit the discussion of a convert then you can include the "from" confession in the caucus and avoid disruption by others.
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