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To: adiaireton8

"Those aren't "derogations". The very notion that these are "derogations" falsely presupposes that the bishop of Rome does not have the authority that he has. In other words, you are begging the question by calling them "derogations"."

Sort of post hoc, propter hoc isn't it? Rome declares the filioque dogmatic sua sponte at the Lateran and Lyons Councils, and for that matter later at Vatican I, then at Vatican I says, well dogmatically the Pope is infallible so the pope had the power back in the 1200s to unilaterally do what the councils specifically forbade, which was to change the wording of the Creed. The same applies to the dogmatic proclamations of the IC and papal infallibility itself. The determination of dogma, without question, always belonged to The Church in council, never to the pope until that authority was arrogated to himself at Vatican I. Of course, one might argue that that "power" amounts to nothing more than the designation of Rome as the first among equal sees in The Church. As it was a creation of a council, Vatican I, and merely a local council at that, an Ecumenical Council could reverse it. In any event, making changes to the Creed and declaring dogma for the entire Church is absolutely against what the Ecumenical Councils declared and as such it is a derogation of the authority of the Holy Spirit which acted through those councils. To say that because a local council said the pope is infallible, well then its OK is unacceptable and, as I said, an example of post hoc propter hoc reasoning, in other words, Romish spin.

"Vatican I never claimed that Rome had a monopoly on the Holy Spirit"

Of course it did. That's exactly what the dogma of papal infallibility means, however limited its use might be. Have you ever read the decrees of Vatican I? For the enlightenment of the lurkers here:

"# Wherefore we teach and declare that,

* by divine ordinance,
* the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that
* this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both
o episcopal and
o immediate.
* Both clergy and faithful,
o of whatever rite and dignity,
o both singly and collectively,
* are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this
o not only in matters concerning faith and morals,
o but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.

# In this way, by unity with the Roman pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the church of Christ becomes one flock under one supreme shepherd [50] .

# This is the teaching of the catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation.

# This power of the supreme pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them. On the contrary, this power of theirs is asserted, supported and defended by the supreme and universal pastor; for St Gregory the Great says: "My honour is the honour of the whole church. My honour is the steadfast strength of my brethren. Then do I receive true honour, when it is denied to none of those to whom honour is due." [51]

# Furthermore, it follows from that supreme power which the Roman pontiff has in governing the whole church, that he has the right, in the performance of this office of his, to communicate freely with the pastors and flocks of the entire church, so that they may be taught and guided by him in the way of salvation.

# And therefore we condemn and reject the opinions of those who hold that

* this communication of the supreme head with pastors and flocks may be lawfully obstructed; or that
* it should be dependent on the civil power, which leads them to maintain that what is determined by the apostolic see or by its authority concerning the government of the church, has no force or effect unless it is confirmed by the agreement of the civil authority.

# Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that

* he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52] , and that
* in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53] .
* The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone,
* nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54] . And so
* they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff.

# So, then,

* if anyone says that
o the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and
+ not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this
+ not only in matters of
# faith and morals, but also in those which concern the
# discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that
o he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that
o this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:
let him be anathema."

"The claim was whether Rome has a "monopoly on the Holy Spirit". When I challenge that claim, you speculate about whether that's what "Vicar of Christ" means (no, it doesn't mean that). Then you construct another straw man in claiming that Christ giving the keys to Peter means that Peter gets to decide "whether God gets out"."

and

"The Catholic Church does not teach that the Pope is infallible simpliciter, but only under very specific conditions."

I think the foregoing decree of Vatican I puts to rest your positions. According to Vatican I, to be saved we must SUBMIT to the person of the pope. That's all most of us need to know. We all thought we were to submit to God.

Finally, you comment that Orthodoxy isn't even "A Church" but rather "a multitude of independant autonomous churches". We are that and as such we are The Church, not "a" Church. By the way, by your definition, every Eastern Rite Church in communion with Rome except perhaps the Ruthenians and the Maronites aren't The Church either. Or is it the magical submission to Rome which makes them The Church? That's not even Latin ecclesiology, A. I don't know what it is. You continue on with a paraphrasing of +Ignatius of Antioch. Its obvious that you believe, as Rome would have you believe, that the bishop +Ignatius is refering to is the pope. Thus, in Latin ecclesiology the fullness of The Church is found only in the Latin Church in submission to the pope, as Vatican I teaches. Orthodoxy has never accepted that and it is laughable to believe that +Ignatius in the year 97 or so was speaking of what the papacy had become by the 19th century.


55 posted on 02/04/2007 1:33:59 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; adiaireton8
Finally, you comment that Orthodoxy isn't even "A Church" but rather "a multitude of independant autonomous churches". We are that and as such we are The Church, not "a" Church. By the way, by your definition, every Eastern Rite Church in communion with Rome except perhaps the Ruthenians and the Maronites aren't The Church either.

The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 22 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Latin Church is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. The Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

74 posted on 02/04/2007 4:52:38 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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