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To: NYer

My position is the position of the consensus patrum and The Church. There is nothing we can do for ourselves to affect the outcome of either the Particular nor the Final Judgment. Unless one attains theosis in this life, a very rare event, our only hope is God's unending mercy, which is what we here on earth pray for when we pray for the dead. Personally, I believe there is likely some sort of burnishing or purification which goes on in the place of the dead and before the Final Judgment. But this is not expiation; it is purification. God's love refines and purifies those who have a similitude to Christ and torments those who have none. The Fathers wrote of God and God's love as being like fire, purifying precious metals and fine pottery, but blackening, even destroying base metals and inferior clay. This personal opinion is in accord with a very ancient thread of theology in The Church.

If I read a broad range of the Fathers, avoiding proof texting the Fathers to fit any particular position, the consensus patrum and thus Holy Tradition becomes clear. In essence, even if I disregard popular notions of what the Latin Church means by purgatory, the distinction between expiation and purification remains.


37 posted on 01/30/2007 6:01:03 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

I haven't actually stated my position, yet, only observed what Jesus said.

My position is that I am going to find out, unfortunately, the hard way. Because I know what's good and what's bad, and that vomit sure tastes good sometimes, dammit.


39 posted on 01/30/2007 6:13:18 PM PST by Vicomte13 (L'Chaim!)
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To: Kolokotronis
I am intrigued by this difference between expiation and purification, I could see where the expiation could be for the purification. eg: I may not be whole (purified) until I have undone (expiated) the damage that my sin has caused. I very much am enjoying the conversation in this these Catholic/Orthodox Caucus threads as there is more sanity than shouting. Thank You!
42 posted on 01/30/2007 7:50:49 PM PST by Klondike
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To: Kolokotronis; trisham; WriteOn; Vicomte13; Knitting A Conundrum; kawaii
God's love refines and purifies those who have a similitude to Christ and torments those who have none.

I think you will appreciate St. Faustina's diary entry on this topic. (St. Faustina's words are in black and Jesus' words are in red.)


Souls in Purgatory

The next night] I saw my Guardian Angel, who ordered me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames which were burning them did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls call her "The Star of the Sea." She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of that prison of suffering. [I heard an interior voice] which said, My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it. Since that time I am in closer communion with the suffering souls. (20)
 
One night, a sister who had died two months previously came to me. She was a sister of the first choir. I saw her in a terrible condition, all in flames with her face painfully distorted. This lasted only a short time, and then she disappeared. A shudder went through my soul because I did not know whether she was suffering in purgatory or in hell. Nevertheless I redoubled my prayers for her. The next night she came again, but I saw her in an even more horrible state, in the midst of flames which were even more intense, and despair was written all over the face. I was astonished to see her in a worse condition after the prayers I had offered for her, and I asked, "Haven't my prayers helped you?" She answered that my prayers had not helped her and that nothing would help her. I said to her," And the prayers which the whole community has offered for you...?" She said no, that these prayers had helped some other souls.... Despite this, I kept on praying.... After some time she came back.. but already her appearance had changed. There were no longer any flames ..and her face was radiant, her eyes beaming with joy. She told me that I had a true love for my neighbour and that many other souls had profited from my prayers. She urged me not to cease praying for the souls in purgatory, and she added that she herself would not remain there much longer. How astounding are the decrees of God! (58)
In spite of the noise [the gardeners] were making, I heard these words in my soul: "Pray for me!" But as I could not understand these words very well, I moved a few steps away from the wards, trying to think who it could be who was asking me to pray. Then I heard the words: "I am Sister..." This sister was in Warsaw while I was, at the time, in Vilnius. "Pray for me until I tell you to stop. I am dying." Immediately, I began to pray fervently for her [addressing myself] to the expiring Heart of Jesus. She gave me no respite , and I kept praying from three until five. At five I heard the words, "Thank you!" and I understood that she had died. .....In the afternoon [the following day] a postcard came saying that Sister... had died at such and such a time. I understood that it was at the same hour when she had said to me, "Pray for me." (315)
 
This evening, one of the deceased sisters came and asked me for one day of fasting and to offer all my [spiritual] exercises on that day for her. I answered that I would. From early morning on the following day, I offered everything for her intention. During Holy Mass, I had a brief experience of her torment. I experienced such intense hunger for God that I seemed to be dying of the desire to become united with Him. This lasted only a short time, but I understood what the longing of the souls in purgatory was like. (1185-6)

58 posted on 01/31/2007 11:05:06 AM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Kolokotronis; NYer
not expiation; it is purification

Definitely. This is why it is not called Expiatory.

72 posted on 01/31/2007 5:42:29 PM PST by annalex
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