Posted on 01/30/2007 4:41:08 PM PST by NYer
I am very frightened when I think about this.
For myself, and especially for some who have gone before.
I am such a wretched snake of a human being, why would my prayers for them have any worth to God at all?
"My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it."
Now you see, NYer, it is this sort of theology which the East cannot accept. In effect this says God is bound by "Necessity". That's heresy from our pov. Actually, I'm a bit surprised that a Latin source would say such a thing.
Kosta, take a look at #58
You don't get out of Hell.
Ever.
And you know it.
And it's even worse.
It's eternal - forever - a concept most mortals can't grasp until it's too late. Deprived of the sight of God for all eternity - forever! Frightening.
if its forever then why in revelation do all the dead come out of hell for the final judgement?
What is the chapter and verse?
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
First of all, you are not a snake! Do not put yourself down when there are so many others more than willing to do it for you.
Secondly, our Lord has promised us His great Mercy. Are you familiar with His messages to St. Faustina? He asked her to be His Secretary of the Divine Mercy.
The message and devotion to Jesus as The Divine Mercy
is based on the writings of Saint Faustina Kowalska, an
uneducated Polish nun who, in obedience to her spiritual
director, wrote a diary of about 600 pages recording the
revelations she received about God’s mercy. Even before
her death in 1938, the devotion to The Divine Mercy had
begun to spread.
The message of mercy is that God loves us — all of us —
no matter how great our sins. He wants us to recognize that
His mercy is greater than our sins, so that we will call upon
Him with trust, receive His mercy, and let it flow through us to
others. Thus, all will come to share His joy. It is a message
we can call to mind simply by remembering ABC.
A — Ask for His Mercy. God wants us to approach
Him in prayer constantly, repenting of our sins and
asking Him to pour His mercy out upon us and upon
the whole world.
B — Be merciful. God wants us to receive His mercy
and let it flow through us to others. He wants us to
extend love and forgiveness to others just as He does
to us.
C — Completely trust in Jesus. God wants us to know
that the graces of His mercy are dependent upon our
trust. The more we trust in Jesus, the more we will
receive.
"Your task is to write down everything that I make known to you about My mercy, for the benefit of those who by reading these things will be comforted in their souls and will have the courage to approach Me." (1693)
In the following extract, St. Faustina's words are in black and Jesus' words are in red.
Mystery of God and His Ways
| Who God is in His Essence, no one will fathom, neither the mind of Angels nor of man...Get to know God by contemplating His attributes. (30) |
| Once when I saw how much my confessor was to suffer because of this work [spreading the devotion to the Divine Mercy] which God was going to carry out through him, fear seized me for the moment, and I said to the Lord, "Jesus, this is Your affair, so why are You acting this way toward him? It seems to me that You are making difficulties for him while at the same time ordering him to act." Write that by day and night My gaze is fixed upon him, and I permit these adversities in order to increase his merit. I do not reward for good results but for the patience and hardship undergone for My sake. (86) |
| One day I saw interiorly how much my confessor would have to suffer: friends will desert you while everyone will rise up against you and your physical strength will diminish. I saw you as a bunch of grapes chosen by the Lord and thrown into the press of suffering. Your soul, Father, will at times be filled with doubts about this work and about me. I saw that God himself seemed to be opposing and I asked the Lord why He was acting this way toward him, as though He were placing obstacles in the way of his doing what He himself had asked him to do. And the Lord said, I am acting thus with him to give testimony that this work is Mine. Tell him not to fear anything; My gaze is on him day and night. There will be so many crowns to form his crown as there will be souls saved by this work. It is not for the success of a work but for the suffering that I give reward. (90) |
| When I asked the Lord to ..cast a glance upon a certain soul who was struggling alone against many difficulties, [the Lord said] And if I allow them to seem to triumph, I do this for the sake of My impenetrable decrees. I experienced great peace in seeing how all things are determined by the Lord. (1610) |
| ..I am not always heard. The Lord acts toward me in a mysterious manner. There are times when He Himself allows terrible sufferings, and then again there are times when He does not let me suffer and removes everything that might afflict my soul. These are His ways , unfathomable and incomprehensible to us. It is for us to submit ourselves completely to His holy will. There are mysteries that the human mind will never fathom here on earth; eternity will reveal them. (1656) |
| My kingdom on earth is My life in the human soul. Write..that I Myself am the spiritual guide of souls - and I guide them indirectly through the priest, and lead each one to sanctity by a road known to Me alone. (1784) |
"First of all, you are not a snake! Do not put yourself down when there are so many others more than willing to do it for you."
You don't know me as well as I do.
But God sees, and God knows.
What is the Orthodox reading of 1 Cor 3:9f?
Definitely. This is why it is not called Expiatory.
"What is the Orthodox reading of 1 Cor 3:9f?"
Do you mean 3:9? If so, it means we work synergisticly with God. We participate obediently in His work.
"This is why it is not called Expiatory."
LOL!!!!!!
I trust its not a place where God gives one a "purgative", like ipecac. :)
8 ...And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour. 9 For we are God's coadjutors: you are God's husbandry; you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.(1 Cor 3:8-15)
Yes, I should have included v.8. The mentioning of "reward according to labor", it seems to me, places the judgement at the time of judgement after death, hence the connection to purgatory. Also note the "day of the Lord". The Orthodox read it as santification during the lifetime? All of them?
Thus, tha author expresses a concept that is indeed alien to the Orthodox East.
"I thought "f" means "and following"."
Tried to fool the simple Greek peasant with your city ways, eh?
I'll answer later as I am off to bed. In haste though, Orthodoxy speaks of a particular and a final judgment. This verse you quoted is one of those the Fathers pointed to when they speak of God's love being like fire, purifying those with a similitude of Christ and tormenting and consuming those who do not.
Then you are denying the authenticity of these words by Christ, to a saint? Have either of you you read St. Faustina's diary?
I'm a bit surprised that a Latin source would say such a thing.
This is a quote from her diary.
No, I am only stating that the Eastern Orthodox Church does not teach that God's mercy is subject to justice, but that God's mercy is God's justice.
" Then you are denying the authenticity of these words by Christ, to a saint? Have either of you you read St. Faustina's diary?"
I haven't read her diary, but I do question the authenticity of words ascribed to Christ which imply that God is bound by necessity. The mere fact that she is a saint of the Roman Church doesn't mean she isn't wrong here, NYer.
"I'm a bit surprised that a Latin source would say such a thing.
This is a quote from her diary."
I don't doubt that its a quote from her diary (the Latin source), NYer. I do doubt the words are from Christ.
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