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To: stfassisi

The difference between Purgatory and Hell is a medieval misunderstanding of Christians.

Jesus referred to "Gehenna", which is the Greek for "Genhinnom". Yes, it is a physical place outside of Jerusalem, a nasty place, but it was given that name because it was an earthly vision of the spiritual Genhinnom of Judaism.

Jesus wasn't making a new doctrine here. He didn't DEFINE Gehenna because he was speaking to JEWS, and JEWS all knew (and, if they have studied their religion, know) what Genhinnom is). Jesus didn't MODIFY anything about the Jewish view of Genhinnom. He simply referred to it, implying that the Jewish view was correct and didn't need to be modified.

So, what IS Genhinnom? Genhinnom - Gehenna in the Greek translation - is Hell, as opposed to Gan Eden, which is Paradise. When the body dies, according to the Jews then and now, the soul departs and goes to judgment before the fair and perfect judge: God Almighty. The soul is judged in the balance, between the good deeds that one has done - the mitzvot - including adherence to The Law - and the evil one has done. If the good deeds far outweigh the bad, and there is nothing horriffic on the bad side, the truly good soul goes straight to Gan Eden: heaven. Everybody else goes to Hell: Genhinnom. But this is the key. Every soul cast into Genhinnon does not STAY there. Genhinnom is a place of purification and pain - where the fire never ceases and the worm never sleeps. And there, those whose balance of good and evil was more even, or those who had a dastardly act in their past but were otherwise good, etc., are purified: THEN they go to Gan Eden. The truly wicked and depraved, whose souls had such a lopsided toll of evil and who did little to no good, stay in Genhinnom forever.

So, you see, Gehenna - Jewish Hell - is both Hell AND Purgatory. The impure but salvageable soul is harrowed through Hell, and purified in the flame, and THEN goes to Heaven.

That's what the Jews believe, and believed. That's what the people Jesus was talking to believed. And that's what Jesus SAID, too, by using the term "Gehenna", just like that, unadorned, unmodified, uncorrected. When Jesus corrected tradition, he always said 'Scripture says, but I tell you...'. When he refers to a tradition and DOESN'T modify it or correct it, and just incorporates it into his speech, he is telling the Jews hearing it that (A) their tradition is essentially correct and (B) given that, because you don't want to go to Hell (even if you get purified in the end, you don't want to get boiled in oil in the first place), do right and follow the teachings and commandments now.

Jesus' sermon is very Jewish. And if we listen to it as a Jew of the First Century (as opposed to a Catholic monastic of the Middle Ages who knows nothing about Judaism other than popular legends filled with blood libel, and the glimpses of it in the New Testament), we discover that Jesus has laid out the directions of the afterlife, and that the Jews have it right: Heaven for the pure, Hell for everyone else, with Hell serving a purifying function for some before they go on to Heaven, while the wicked stay in Hell forever. That's what Jesus SAID by invoking Gehenna and not modifying it.

If Catholics understood the Jewish Jesus better, they would understand that Purgatory IS Hell, and Hell IS Purgatory. The only distinction is that for those souls to be purified there, Hell ENDS at some point and they leave for Heaven, thus making Hell a Purgatory. But for the wicked, there is no purgation. It's just hell and flames and torment forever, without end.

How to avoid that end? Don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit is the biggie Jesus warned about. Every other sin can be pardoned, eventually, according to Jesus. And given that Jesus was God Incarnate, he ought to know.

There really should not be a debate about Hell and Purgatory.
Those who say there IS NO PURGATORY because it's not in the Bible are wrong. It IS in the Bible, from Jesus' lips no less: Gehenna.
Those who say there IS NO HELL are wrong. It IS in the Bible, from Jesus' lips no less: Gehenna.
Those who say that Hell and Purgatory are DIFFERENT PLACES are mistaken. They misunderstand the Jewish meaning of Gehenna. Gehenna is Hell, and Hell is Purgatory, for those who are sent there to be purged. For the damned, there's no purgation and they just stay there. Jesus said that too, by speaking of Gehenna over and over, and not correcting the Jewish belief in the slightest. Wherever the Jewish tradition about which Jesus was speaking was wrong, in error, departed from the will of the Father, Jesus said so. But when it DIDN'T - when Jesus just used the words and texts and asserted them to teach - then Jesus put his own imprimatur on them.

Hell and Purgatory are both Genhinnom - Gehenna - Jesus used the term as a Jew does, uncorrected. Which means that the Jews are right in their understanding of the structure of the afterlife and judgement.

Which means that yes, there IS a Purgatory, and yes, it IS in the Bible. So, the Catholics aren't WRONG, exactly. Where they err is in imagining them to be separate places, and then building up theological traditions based on that difference. There is no difference. Jesus said so, if you understand him, a Jew, as a Jew understands him.

Purgatory is interesting, because it's a doctrine that the Catholics/Orthodox actually have mostly RIGHT, based on the BIBLE ITSELF, but the Protestants miss out on completely because they don't have the Jewish understanding of the texts. Catholicism/Orthodoxy started out as Judaism, so that memory of the meaning was there, and was passed on. But it became strained as the link with Judaism was broken and there was only the text to fall back on. Christians TODAY can run over to their Jewish neighbors' synagogues and ask "So, what's this Gehenna business", and have the eye-opening experience of realizing that Jesus is referring to BOTH Hell AND Purgatory in the same single word. But medieval Christians, especially theologians, didn't talk to Jews about theology, and indeed, despised them.

So, there's the real answer.

I suspect it will satisfy nobody, because Protestants have their TRADITION of bashing Catholics about Purgatory, and Catholics have their TRADITION of the power of the keys, and teaching authority of the Church.

The real solution is that Jesus taught Purgatory, and Hell, and they're the same place: Gehenna. That's the truth. Let him who is able, hear it.


7 posted on 01/29/2007 8:48:03 AM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: Vicomte13

If your postulate is true, can souls in Gehenna-Purgatory be bought (or otherwise earned) out of their suffering?

Hey God, let's make a deal!


11 posted on 01/29/2007 8:57:33 AM PST by pjr12345
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To: Vicomte13
You're right. It didn't satisfy me :) And, your judging of the Church didn't persuade me. The New Testament teaches the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth. I don't recall you being mentioned in the New Testament:

You think Hell and Purgatory are the same place. So?

Why don't you cite an Ecumenical Council or something from The Sources of Catholic Dogma or Catechism of the Catholic Church you oppose and then maybe we can have something solid to kick around.

69 posted on 01/29/2007 11:58:54 AM PST by bornacatholic
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