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To: bornacatholic; Vicomte13

The only problem with your listing is that NONE of them refer to purgatory. One has to obtusely torture the Scripture to even come close to the idea (a task that Vicomte13 has affected rather well). The truth is, the closest you guys got to Scriptural support of Purgatory is a vague reference of Judas M. praying for the dead soldiers in a non-inspired book.

I certainly respect your right to believe in Purgatory... and praying to dead people... and turning a blessed woman into a goddess... and Santa Claus... and the Easter Bunny... and the Tooth Fairy...


128 posted on 01/29/2007 12:57:32 PM PST by pjr12345
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To: pjr12345

IMO this comes from the Latins always having had a sort of 'were not worthy but let's try to make up for it with this that and the other thing' mentality. Certainly we eastern Christians concur on the We're definitly not worthy end of things, but find a lot of the trying to make up for that to be a bit extraneous and futile.

Penance for instance in the east is a pretty rare thing for a priest to ask of a confessor (only in extreme instances).

To an extent the East said in a bunch of circumstances (celibacy being another) that the latins were great folks for going all out, but that nothing in doctrine required explicitly anything like what they were doing.


139 posted on 01/29/2007 1:05:28 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: pjr12345

"One has to obtusely torture the Scripture to even come close to the idea (a task that Vicomte13 has affected rather well)"

Task: go to Judaica Store. Find book on "The Essentials of Judaism", or even "Judaism for Dummies". Open to index.
Find "Gehinnom" or "Gehenna" (both will be there).
Turn to that page.
Read how Jewish Hell is also Purgatory.
No affectation at all.
It's called READING THE WORD.
Jesus used the word "Gehenna". He didn't say "Hades". He didn't say "Sheol". He didn't say "Tartarus". He said Gehenna. He said it many times. That was the word he used.
He didn't qualify it. He didn't define it. He didn't explain it.
He didn't do with it what he did to every Jewish doctrine that he wanted to change or explain better. He just used it. Flat. Just like that. A Jew, talking to Jews, says "Gehenna", like a Catholic, talking to Catholics, says "confirmation". To a non-Catholic, what confirmation actually IS, what is happening spiritually, might be confusing, might require explanation. But to a Catholic? No. Confirmation has a clear meaning, and you can just say "my Confirmation", and everybody knows what it means.

Jesus the Jew used Gehenna when speaking to Jews just as matter-of-factly. They all knew that it meant Jewish Hell, which is a Hell of torment and fire, where the worm never sleeps and the fire is not quenched...and where those who have done evil go, some to be purified in the flame and torment, and some who are irretrievably evil to remain for ever. Jewish Hell: Gehenna, MEANS all that, just like "Confirmation" means the sealing of the soul, and chrismation, and the corrective slap, and a certain coming-of-age, and many other things that need not be explained if you say "Confirmation".

Just because WE are confused about the term "Gehenna" doesn't mean it's confusing. It means we're not Jews. Jesus was a Jew. His audience were Jews. They understood it, and understand it. And if we want to know what Jesus meant, all we have to do is ask the Jews. It's not hard.

It's just hard to swallow, because it means the Protestant traditions are simply wrong, and the Catholic traditions are overwrought, and Protestants and Catholics (and the Orthdox), all three, have a lot of energy and power and pride wrapped up in arguments about authority and meaning.

THIS argument is one that can be solved by consulting a Jewish dictionary. It's not hard. It's not confusing.
Jesus was clear and answered all of these questions with that pithy little word "Gehenna". Why WE have to go into agony and bleed a fountain of electronic ink has to do with pride and stubbornness on our part.

I am perfectly willing to keep on repeating this, because it is so, and it is simple. It is an obtuse torture of the Scripture to do anything BUT read "Gehenna" as a Jew of the First Century (or today) would understand it, and as Jesus, one such Jew, used it when addressing Jewish people.
Gehenna means Hell, which includes Purgatory. That's what the BIBLE says.
All the rest of this wind is Christian tradition (little "T") that seeks to twist the meaning of the Bible into a doctrine that fits the traditions of the different Christian sects. THIS is the sort of thing Jesus warned against when he warned against traditions.

Why?
Because THIS twisting of Jesus' simple word and meaning: Gehenna, is being used to argue that you don't have to DO anything to AVOID Gehenna, but all four Gospels are filled to the brim with Jesus telling everyone who would listen what they needed to specifically DO to avoid getting pitched into it. To say that it doesn't exist, or that a Christian can't end up there, contradicts Jesus, and that is just an extraordinary thing to do if one believes he's God!


287 posted on 01/29/2007 4:38:25 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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