Posted on 01/25/2007 10:49:26 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
The premise to uphold or debunk: (a) That the name of “Rock” was specially announced as a name for God in the Torah (Deut 32:1-4) and that (b) the name has been erased and/or lost in certain translations and thus (c) has had an effect on how Christians understand certain passages in Scripture.
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he. – Deu 32:1-4
We were hashing these things out on another thread here on the Religion Forum. But the thread is huge and has many sidebars and interest changed to more pressing matters – plus we were not on the “radar” of the forum as a whole. It is my hope that other posters here will have information and insight – whether Biblical archeology or theology or language – that will shed some additional light on the subject.
Translations: English from Hebrew (Masoretic)
[He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.
tsuwr po`al tamiym derek mishpat 'el 'emuwnah `evel tsaddiyq yashar
English from the Greek (Septuagint)
As for God, His works are true, and all His ways are justice. God is faithful and there is no unrighteousness in Him; just and holy is the Lord.
English from Latin (Vulgate)
The works of God are perfect, and all his ways are judgments: God is faithful and without any iniquity, he is just and right.
Dei perfecta sunt opera et omnes viae eius iudicia Deus fidelis et absque ulla iniquitate iustus et rectus
Background on the Hebrew:
Tzur is Hebrew for "rock". It is also used here:
Biblical and Talmudic Names for God Another common title of YHWH is "the Rock" (Deuteronomy 32:4,18, 1, 7; I Samuel 2:2; II Samuel 22:32; Isaiah 44:8; Psalm 18:32), thus comparing Him to a high crag on which one finds refuge and safety.
Nor has it been lost among Christians who have long used the King James Translation which was faithful to interpret literally the Hebrew word tzur to mean Rock instead of God or Mighty One as it is translated in the Septuagint. Ironically, the Christian hymn Rock of Ages is among their favorites. The name for God is used in several places in Deuteronomy 32 and 2 Samuel 22 but also appears throughout the Psalms and in Isaiah.
In Isaiah 30:29 and Habbukak 1:12 it is translated in the King James Version to mean Mighty One like in the Septuagint - but everywhere else that I have found it is “Rock”.
The Vulgate omits the name altogether in Deuteronomy 32:4
Why is it important? From the Jewish perspective Of all the possible errors a translator could make, missing one of the names or titles of God has to be “right up there.” Rock is one of the common names for God but nevertheless important to Judaism.
Jews do not casually write any Name of God. This practice does not come from the commandment not to take the Lord's Name in vain, as many suppose. In Jewish thought, that commandment refers solely to oath-taking, and is a prohibition against swearing by God's Name falsely or frivolously (the word normally translated as "in vain" literally means "for falsehood"). Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of God casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better. The commandment not to erase or deface the name of God comes from Deut. 12:3. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over the promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the local deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to our God. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy any holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of God. It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form, and recent rabbinical decisions have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God on web sites like this one or in BBS messages: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it. Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." In addition, the number 15, which would ordinarily be written in Hebrew as Yod-Heh (10-5), is normally written as Tet-Vav (9-6), because Yod-Heh is a Name. See Hebrew Alphabet for more information about using letters as numerals.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. – Matt 5:18
Jewish tradition holds that the Torah existed before the world, that every letter of it is a living creature and that altogether it, too, is a name of God. It is their – and by their hand to the world – greatest gift (since they don't receive Christ.) It is also their mission.
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. - John 4:22
To me, not translating tzur literally Rock in the Septuagint - is in fact "erasing" a name of God. Moreover, it is not in the Vulgate at all in Deu 32:4.
From the Christian perspective: The name of God is crucial to all Christians. It is our first plea in the Lord’s prayer:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:11-12 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. – John 5:43 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. – John 17:6 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. – John 17:11-13 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. – Philippians 2:9-11 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. – Revelation 19:12-13
Surely the name “God is the Rock” will continue to be important in eternity. The Deuteronomy passage is in the “Song of Moses” which will be sung in heaven:
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. – Rev 15:2-4
And Christ used the term Rock in two very important passages. If one misunderstands the Rock to mean something common or someone other than God, then it can lead to error.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. – Matt 7:24-25 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. – Matt 16:17-18
Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. – 1 Peter 2:7-8
To me, the most far reaching loss is in seeing Peter as the Rock in Matt 16:17-18 instead of God. Not that he isn’t “a“ rock but – at the very most, accepting that God is the Rock - his position in Christianity could be no more than Abraham’s in Judaism.
Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock [whence] ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit [whence] ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah [that] bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him. – Isaiah 51:1-2
Moreover, I assert that receiving the knowledge that “God is the Rock” can improve our understanding the Old Testament and increase our joy. As an example, consider the following passage understanding that God is the Rock, that Jesus was smitten, that the Living Water is the Spirit (John 4, 7:38):
Or perhaps this one:
And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. – Exodus 33:21-23
Here’s where the debate stands at this time:
Defense of the Vulgate/Septuagint:
The rebuttal so far is that the Septuagint chronologically precedes the Masoretic text, that the original Hebrew from which the Septuagint was translated is no longer available (as far as we know to this date.)
I have not yet received a defense for why the Vulgate omits the term altogether.
Rebuttal to the defense
As to antiquity, Deuteronomy is the second most copied book at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) – 33 copies, second only to Psalms. Some are copied in fragments like literature, poems or hymns. However, generally speaking, carbon dating of manuscripts at Qumran establish true antiquity of copies at several centuries B.C. The Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies does not mention any change to the Masoretic Text needed with reference to Deuteronomy 32:1-4. However, although we do have a non-MT Hebrew version of Deutoronomy 32 from cave 4, 4QDt(q) – it only contains lines 37-43. So we cannot read anything into an omission here in comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Septuagint (LXX.) But as to the faithfulness of the Torah itself there is no question. As I have much personally testified, the indwelling Spirit authenticates Scripture and leads us into Truth. (John 14, 15):
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
The basic Hebrew text is called the Masoretic Text (MT), which is named after a group of scribes in the ninth century that preserved the text and added vowels and punctuation marks. The original Hebrew just had consonants, but a few consonants functioned as vowels. No one would know how to pronounce the Hebrew words unless vowels marks were added. This is a great help in understanding the text. (Hebrew Bible) There were three different tasks of copying the OT. The Sopherim wrote the consonantal text. The Nakdanim added the vowel points and accents. The Masoretes added the marginal notes. An example is the Kethib (what is written) and Qere (what should be read). There are over 1,300 of these. The vowels of the Qere were written in the text of the Kethib. There are three different systems of vowel pointing, the Babylonian, Palestinian and Tiberian which the Masoretes created. The marginal notes called Masora were mainly written in Aramaic and were like a concordance. Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls the Nash Papyrus was the oldest known witness to the OT which dated to the first or second century AD. It contained the decalogue. The second oldest were the Cairo Geniza fragments (about 200,000) which date to the fifth century AD (See Princeton Geniza Project). Most of these are in the Cambridge University Library and the Bodleian Library at Oxford. Today the oldest known text of the OT was discovered in 1979 in tombs across the Hinnom valley from Jerusalem. The text is the benediction of Aaron (Numbers 6:24-26) written on a silver amulet from the 7th century BC (Hoerth 1998, 386). The oldest surviving manuscript of the complete Bible is the Codex Leningradensis which dates to 1008 AD. A Facsimile edition of this great codex is now available (Leningrad Codex 1998, Eerdmans for $225). The BHS (Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) follows this codex. The most comprehensive collection of old Hebrew manuscripts is in the Russian Public Library in St. Petersburg formerly called Leningrad. Another important text is the Aleppo Codex which is now in Jerusalem. The HUB (Hebrew University Bible) follows the Aleppo Codex. The Isaiah and Jeremiah editions are now available. For a more detailed study see The Text of the Old Testament by Ernst Wurthwein and Textual Criticism: Recovering the Text of the Hebrew Bible by P. Kyle McCarter, Jr.
Nevertheless, the Jews always understood their responsibility to keep the Torah:
Other resources for Lurkers:
The Hebrew Alphabet wrt the history of the signs and the care in forming letters in Holy Scriptures. Ancient Hebrew Translation Project - wrt the translation of poetic form v mechanical v literal
1 Enoch 96:2 refers to the righteous rising into the cleft of the rock. Fragments of this book were found at Qumran and carbon date to about 200 BC. The scholars suggest these passages were added though in about 100 B.C. The scholars believe the original language was Hebrew and/or Aramaic.
Testament of Moses which is supposed to be a summary of Deutoronomy, but is very fragmented and the parts which would address the name, the Rock, may be missing. The scholars dispute the age of the manuscript but put it somewhere between 168 BC and 135 AD. The bearing it may have (if any) to this discussion is that Moses instructs and assures Joshua to protect the Scriptures (last part of chapter 1) in a manner that suggests there will be another find like the Dead Sea Scrolls as we get closer the Christ’s coming:
… I am going to sleep with my fathers. But (you) take this writing so that later you will remember how to preserve the books which I shall entrust to you. You shall arrange them, anoint them with cedar, and deposit them in earthenware jars in the place which (God) has chosen from the beginning of the creation of the world, (a place) where his name may be called upon until the day of recompense when the Lord will surely have regard for his people.
Amen.
Excellent.
Thanks.
And thanks for all your prayers--chest congestion is abating.
Exactly
Quite so.
What is so difficult to discern about
[EVERYONE=EVERY BELIEVER]
EVERYONE EQUAL BEFORE THE CROSS.
EVERYONE EQUAL BEFORE DADDY IN ESSENTIAL RESPECTS.
EVERYONE WITH ACCESS TO DADDY DIRECTLY.
EVERYONE ENJOYING RESTORED ONE ON ONE FELLOWSHIP WITH DADDY.
NO LOFTY SPIRITUAL ELITE LORDING IT OVER ANYONE ELSE
NO holier than thous brazenly pointing fingers before The Father.
Perhaps a thread on the humility saturated equality before The Cross and before Daddy would be good for someone to do.
. . . someone with better scholarship on such than mine.
Of course the kingdom is all of ours. But only Peter has the keys. In the same way, I might say..."Here...you all have this vacation home. But I'm giving Silverlings the keys".
Truly I see Peter as a humble man - or better still, a humbled man, like Paul. Certainly Cornelius was directed to him by the angel - and Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem for a decision concerning Gentile converts and Peter spoke up.
But Peter's boldness concerning the gospel was never self aggrandizing. Thus if any of us deign to walk in the footsteps of Peter, it will be walk of humility - as it would have been for anyone trying to walk in the footsteps of Abraham.
Indeed! But note what you just said...Jesus' name for HIM. It was a personal name. You don't give a personal name to a "confession".
Again, the Scriptures are 100% clear here. SU EI PETROS You. Are. Rock.
There is really no room for ambiguity. It doesn't say "your confession is the Rock." It doesn't say I am really the rock and you are something else. Bringing up all these other metaphors is helpful and instructive and ehlkps us flesh out the context. But they still do not change the plain fact that Christ named Peter the Rock. However we explain this passage, we can't pretend that He didn't say what he said.
Alamo-Girl, you are absolutely 100% correct. Remember Christ's advice to Peter, that when he was older, they would lead him where he didn't want to go.
Who must be the first among you, must be a servant. Any other attitude is simply not Christian.
elhkps = helps. Sheesh. :)
Great thread. Bookmarked.
Seems to me the mention of the vision of the new heaven and earth in Revelation - and especially the New Jerusalem - has much to tell, as previously mentioned on this thread.
There is a separate foundation gemstone named for each of twelve apostles, and a separate gate named for each of the twelve tribes of Israel. (Rev 21) But there is no special honor for Abraham, Moses, David - and no special distinction among the foundation gemstones for Peter, John, James or Paul.
I assert the point is wrapped up beautifully in the end of the book, by the testimony of the angel here:
IOW, it is all too easy to get caught up in the majesty when we have a "vision" - a revelation of God, but the servant of the Master is the servant of all, like the Master (Philippinas 2).
Claud, nobody disputes that Jesus called Peter "rock". Grammatically, however, the Rock that Jesus is referring to in the second half of the sentence is a thing, not a person. When speaking to a specific person I would not say "You are a rock, and upon this rock I will...." I would say "You are a rock and upon you...."
Simon, you are a "rock" and upon THIS ROCK I will build my church.
You is a personal pronoun
This, in this case, is an adjective modifying Rock (a thing not a person). Which Rock? This one.
Thus is was Peter's confession, not Peter that would be the rock upon which Christ's church would be. It was his exclamation that "Jesus is the Christ" that would be foundational to the starting of the Christian religion.
Further, I think it is at least possible that the "gates of Hell will not overcome 'it'" could refer to the confession rather than the church (though Christ will preserve His church through the end).
Peter, you are a Rock, and upon this Rock [i.e. some other rock] I will build my Church.
That doesn't make a lot of sense, frankly.
Moreover, if you're right, then all of a sudden Jesus switches back to the second person for no explicable reason. I will give *you* the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and what *you* bind in heaven will be bound, and what *you* loose. If the confession is the subject of the sentence, then what's the deal with the switch back to "you"? Isn't it easier and simpler just to assume that it was "you" all throughout in the first place?
I assert that everything we read in Scripture must be viewed in context with the whole.
For instance, if we narrow in on some of the dialog in Job, we'd miss the point that God was not pleased with their pronouncements starting around Job 38.
Likewise, if we focus on the first few chapters of Ecclesiastes, we might end up with a rather depressed view of mortal life, i.e. why bother? But taken in the whole, the meaning of those chapters changes.
Moreover, I aver the Scriptures come alive within us from the indwelling Spirit who leads us into all truth - if we only let Him (John 14-17, Romans 8, I Cor 2). If it weren't for the Spirit, the Scriptures would be just another collection of ancient manuscripts:
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. - Deu 30:6
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. - Col 2:11-12
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit...
For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his...
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - from Romans 8
No, your idea is more like a father buying his son a new home but he'll keep the keys. You give a person property, you give him the keys. What's the point of an evangelical making a person a disciple as commanded by the great commission, then have to say, oh well, now I have to run it by Peter? Does not make sense.
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