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Prince of darkness finds peace at church
The Standard ^ | Jan 27, 2007 | Malcolm Moore

Posted on 01/24/2007 8:42:52 PM PST by xzins

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To: Campion; wmfights; jude24
That was going on long before the Reformation.

The Reformation's intent was mass distribution. This was now possible because of the printing press. I've been to Mainz Germany to see Gutenberg's press, and it is awesome that this invention, in the midst of this conflict, came about at just this time of supreme corruption and just this time of a courageous man willing to speak out and to translate the scripture into his native German.

God's ways are too wonderful for the mind of us finite humans.

41 posted on 01/25/2007 8:04:58 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: sitetest

see #37


42 posted on 01/25/2007 8:05:52 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
I simply asked if this character looked like one who had any "openness to divine guidance."

By virtue of his position on the chair of Peter, as to matters of faith.... yes. The Church was founded by Christ, and therefore the Spirit will make certain the principles of the Faith is not corrupted.
43 posted on 01/25/2007 8:06:19 AM PST by DarkSavant
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To: DarkSavant; wmfights; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan

You wouldn't get me to buy into it.

And apparently, when it got bad enough, the German princes and the revolutionary Evangelische (Lutherans) weren't buying into it either.

The Reformation didn't capture N. Europe by storm because it had no substance. It was because the corruption was so extreme that people could see clearly that "The Pope had no clothes." (Nor did the Emperor.)


44 posted on 01/25/2007 8:11:33 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

Once Luther's followers started rioting, looting and murdering, Luther hid.

Then there is the boring everyday politics that surrounded and influenced the reformation.


45 posted on 01/25/2007 8:11:34 AM PST by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: Jaded

Luther, who wrote "Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants (1525)," was no supporter of the peasant atrocities.


46 posted on 01/25/2007 8:13:59 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: Carolina

Wonderful. We could use that on a lot of these threads! LOL!

I wonder how many other leaders of other churches have such shady pasts???


47 posted on 01/25/2007 8:17:54 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: DarkSavant; xzins
The Church was founded by Christ, and therefore the Spirit will make certain the principles of the Faith is not corrupted.

What are those principles of faith. The key principle of faith that the Bible clearly teaches is that it is by "Grace we are saved through faith and not of works, lest any man should boast." Yet the Catholic Church has for hundreds of years made salvation contingent upon works.

So what principles of Faith in the RC Church have not been corrupted?

48 posted on 01/25/2007 8:19:56 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Carolina

Great picture!


49 posted on 01/25/2007 8:22:13 AM PST by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: marshmallow

Luther attempted to drive the money changers from the temple, but the money changers triumphed and expelled Luther from the temple instead.


50 posted on 01/25/2007 8:26:18 AM PST by Between the Lines (I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations. So should you.)
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To: DarkSavant

Please do not use potty language or references to potty language on the Religion Forum.


51 posted on 01/25/2007 8:34:30 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: xzins
The Reformation's intent was mass distribution. This was now possible because of the printing press.

Exactly.

Of course, once "mass distribution" had been achieved, Luther started to regret what he'd created. He wanted everyone to read the Bible allright, but he also expected they'd agree with him afterwards. :-0

52 posted on 01/25/2007 8:41:44 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Salvation; P-Marlowe; wmfights
how many other leaders of other churches

The difference, of course, is that their churches don't claim that their leaders have it within them to be infallible.

I don't really know the answer to the following question: Is it possible for a Pope to be removed at all? for malfeasance?

53 posted on 01/25/2007 8:43:54 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: P-Marlowe
The key principle of faith that the Bible clearly teaches is that it is by "Grace we are saved through faith and not of works, lest any man should boast." Yet the Catholic Church has for hundreds of years made salvation contingent upon works.

We don't make "salvation contingent upon works" any more than Christ or St. James do. For that matter, it was St. Paul who said, in the same Epistle you quote, "neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

If Jesus and James are "too contingent upon works" for you, I'm sorry. I'll continue to follow Jesus, and not Luther or Calvin.

54 posted on 01/25/2007 8:44:34 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: xzins
The difference, of course, is that their churches don't claim that their leaders have it within them to be infallible.

The Eastern Orthodox absolutely claim that an ecumenical council, once "accepted" by the church, teaches infallibly.

You, yourself, believe that the Apostles taught (at least when they wrote Scripture) under inspiration. Inspiration is a higher charism than infallibility, so yes, you absolutely claim that the leaders of the church in the apostolic era were infallible under some circumstances, in fact that they were more than infallible.

55 posted on 01/25/2007 8:47:07 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion

There definitely were other groups and leaders that gave Luther pause.


56 posted on 01/25/2007 8:47:23 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: Campion

I was responding to the observation that other churches have leaders who haven't been altogether moral.

When was the most recent ecumenical council?

When did the last Apostle die? (Hint: Robert Duval doesn't count.:>)


57 posted on 01/25/2007 8:50:12 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
When was the most recent ecumenical council? When did the last Apostle die?

What difference does it make?

58 posted on 01/25/2007 8:51:59 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: xzins; Dr. Eckleburg
sign of openness to divine guidance?

Infallibility is not an openness to divine guidance but the Holy Spirit preventing the comission of error in teaching. A Pope does not have to be in tune with the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit to do His work. Infallibility does not make the Pope wise, smart, judicious, well-meaning or any other good thing. It simply prevents him from binding the Church to erroneous teaching.

59 posted on 01/25/2007 8:53:11 AM PST by Andrew Byler
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To: Campion

The Robert Duval defense, eh?

:>)


60 posted on 01/25/2007 8:53:33 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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