Posted on 01/24/2007 5:24:55 AM PST by Quix
So you agree then that the subtitle of the thread is inaccurate?
Not at all. A basic reading of the bible shows that implanting Christianity is not all that easy. The life of a missionary can be difficult. Even those who are accepting can be lead astray. So, therefore, simply because you say somebody says that they gave an mp3 player to some tribesman and the tribesman said they were not Christians, while a great thing, does not mean that the work is done.
If we can agree on nothing else, we certainly can agree on this. I'm not convinced at your argument, and you're not convinced of the flaws that I see in your argument, and I doubt either of us is near convincing the other. That said, I need to attend to other things.
I sometimes drive a hard argument, which combined with pure stubbornness can make for some rather harsh comments. I apologize if I was out of line... all too often for me, charity and patience are the first to go. I'll leave the discussing and arguing to everyone else on the thread.
I will pray for you tonight; not that you see things my way, but that we eventually see things the same way, even if that ends up being in Heaven instead of here on Earth.
Amen, it is Wonderful! Thank You, Loving Lord, for Your Merciful Grace!
I was doing a study on another subject and came across this interesting essay on Augustine's thoughts on the supremecy of the scriptures.
The Libri Carolini was drawn up by Theodulf of Orléans (c.760-821)—one of the key theologians of the Carolingian church and the author of the well-known hymn “All glory, laud, and honour”—in 790-793 and then later revised by him with the help of, among others, Alcuin of York (c.732-804)—the private tutor to Charlemagne and the head of the palace school at Aachen. It was a well-argued response by the Latin-speaking Carolingian Church to the iconodulist decrees of the Second Council of Nicaea (787). In essence, the Libri Carolini sought to refute this council’s advocacy of the use of icons as vehicles of worship and argument that such icons deserved the identical adoration as due to God. In light of recent discussions about worship and the so-called contemporary inability to primarily use words—notably the sermon—as a vehicle for worship, it has some interesting observations to add to these discussions.
Theodulf was a Visigothic churchman who was deeply influenced by the writings of Augustine, particularly the latter’s De doctrina christiana. This Augustinian work, which deals broadly with hermeneutics and was often treated as a manual for preachers in the early Middle Ages, provided Theodulf with the resources to argue that the Bible alone is “the material object to which the Christian can turn to gain knowledge of the spiritual realm, because it was granted by God for this purpose” [Celia Chazelle, “ ‘Not in Painting but in Writing’: Augustine and the Supremacy of the Word in the Libri Carolini” in Edward D. English, ed., Reading and Wisdom. The De Doctrina Christiana of Augustine in the Middle Ages (Notre Dame/London: University of Notre Dame Press, 1995), 7]. Augustine was fairly severe on artistic representation. He argued that it was a “useless institution” that the serious student of Scripture needed to avoid. Relying on this Augustinian work, Theodulf was thus convinced that the Greek Orthodox advocacy of icons was due to their poor understanding of the beauty and riches of Scripture. The latter has all that a believer needs.
Celia Chazelle, in the above-cited article, notes that Theodulf’s critique is also tied up with “the concept that writing in general has greater merit as an instrument of communication than does artistic depiction” (“Not in Painting but in Writing” in English, ed., Reading and Wisdom, 7). A picture, since it is material, does not partake of the spiritual realm. By definition, it must resemble that to which it refers and thus it cannot really inform its viewers about the realm of the Spirit. Words, on the other hand, are not so limited, for words are signs that do not have to resemble their subjects. And going along with this powerful advocacy of the written word and the supremacy of Scripture was an attempt to make Caorlingian society an increasingly literate culture.
Summing up the thrust of the argument of the Libri Carolini and its similarity to Augustine’s De doctrina christiana, Chazelle states:
“Both treatises insist on the supremacy of words as signs over all other forms of communication accessible to humans; both stress the difficulty, subtlety, and richness of written language, especially Scripture, and both maintain that the Christian who does not investigate the Bible’s language carefully or with sufficient grasp of the rules governing written language runs the danger of misinterpreting Scripture’s message. Both treatises make it clear that interest in artistic representations is incompatible with study of the Bible…” (“Not in Painting but in Writing” in English, ed., Reading and Wisdom, 12).
Posted by Michael A G Haykin at 2:17 PM
For by One Offering He hath Perfected Forever them that are Sanctified. (Heb.10:14)
He that heareth my word
He doesn't say read, he says hear ;)
Trusting mortals is risky business.
Split the tribesmen into two groups.
Give group #1 an mp3 player with the Scriptures.
Give group #2 am mp3 player with some catchy Elvis songs.
Return at periodic intervals and monitor the number and behavior of the followers of each respective mp3 "Church" group.
If your hypothesis is correct, the Holy Spirit acting through the "proven" Sola Scriptura will be striking regularly at the quoted 60% success ratio (6 out of 10), leaving poor Elvis to pick up the crumbs among the 40% loser group who are apparently "Sola refractive".
IOW, you need to control for the "mp3 effect". That is, giving shiny "great-white-hunter" speaking widgets to isolated tribesman may have an effect independent of the contents of the mp3. I think a rigorous "proof" demands that you eliminate this possibility.
They would get both Scripture and Elvis.
Thus, we would get to quantitate the "Sola Scriptura" and "Elvis" effects in both isolation and in competition.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
30 YEARS demonstrating
that in SOME respects it CAN be that "easy" in terms of implanting The Word in tribal groups evidently is
not enough for some sensibilities and constructions on reality.
There used to be a group of ecclesiastical religious experts who Christ accused of erecting countless road blocks, burdens, walls between God and people . . .
They too thought a relationship with God should be difficult to impossible and procede ONLY with their imprimateur, sanction, blessing.
God thought otherwise.
Christ shed His Precious Blood for otherwise.
Praise God, Holy Spirit is still proving OTHERWISE.
I think I'll go on agreeing with God on that issue.
Am happy for prayers that God's Highest will be done, manifested in my life and the lives of all I care about--which would include you.
Thanks.
Blessings,
Thanks.
Impressive.
Indeed, the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. (John 14-17, Romans 8.)
Trusting mortals is risky business.
= = = =
Quite so. Has persistently been so in my experience.
PRAISE GOD.
Could not begin to do such a study with a clear conscience.
That would be like doing an experiment knowingly giving folks TB or syphilus.
The Word is Life. Nothing else comes close.
It has been my observation and experience, that
no matter how easy the introduction to Jesus . . . sooner or later all believers have to come to terms with learning about
COUNT IT ALL JOY when you fall into diverse temptations . . .
and
Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
and
2 Corinthians 1:5
For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
and
2 Corinthians 1:6
And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
and
2 Corinthians 1:7
And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
and
Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
and
James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
and
1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
= = = =
This is boot camp.
Praise God for a joyous smooth easy intro. There are plenty of challenges ahead for every believer.
Deliberately placing such stumbling stones in anyone's way is not Christ-like.
Well, that's the point of this article, isn't it?
No, I think the subtitle is optimistic.
None of us knows if any of these people are among the elect, but it is a fact that all who are among the elect, eventually, whether it is by these MP3 players or by some other means of the Gospel being preached to them, will know their salvation by Jesus Christ and believe.
Scripture tells us to preach the Gospel and so we must.
KEEP them illiterate?
Who was KEEPING them illiterate? As if this poor peasant tilling the land for some feudal Lord had *all* this time and momey to learn to read, but those big bad ol' priests just kept 'em down. Holy cow..what a conspiracy LOL. Find me one historical source that backs up this truly absurd claim.
The printing press, doc, was an advancement in *technology*, not the end of a conspiracy.
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