Posted on 12/29/2006 4:47:11 AM PST by cowboyfan88
Edited on 12/29/2006 8:32:56 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
God will mess you up if you don't take his word seriously and study...
Noah wasn't really saved by water...If that were so, all the folks that died by the same water would have been saved...
Noah was saved by the boat...And the boat, which was a ridiculous endeavor at the time, was the result of Faith...Faith in God...Faith in God's word...'Course you can believe it was the water that saves if you want...
Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also:
You see any water in that verse??? I don't...There isn't any...
not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
That eliminates any thought of water in the verse...
but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Now there's the faith...The same faith that Noah had to build the stupid boat while living in the desert...
*My Salvation began in VT where I was Baptised...
It didn't start if all you got was wet...You can't get saved by water...
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Once the Comforter, the Holy Ghost showed up, there was no more need of water baptism...
However, I could fall away, like many others have before
If you are a human being, you have alreay fallen away...
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
So according to the scripture that you use, your salvation by water, and my salvation by faith are dead and gone...I know that I have sinned since my salvation and I am comfident you have as well...We're doomed...
I didn't read in scripture where your personal opinion is the pillar and ground of truth
Now, the verses I posted can not be simply excised from Holy Writ because they do not fit the oral protestant tradition.
Acts....But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
Mark 16...He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
You answered, of your life
That's easy to say but one can not read Mat. 24 where this occurs and not see that the 'end' is the end of a period of time...The time known as the great tribulation...Has nothing to do with anyone's lifetime...
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
IN THOSE DAYS
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
OF THOSE DAYS
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Somehow your church got you to believe IT instead of the bible...
That's the problem...Get out your bible and read it...
You might learn that your church is NOT the pillar and ground of the truth...The pillar and ground of the truth is Jesus Christ, and His word...
It fits perfectly with what I posted. Your life could end at any moment. Even if you are saved, as you claim you are, you could fall away before you die
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Thank GOD that the price for that sin has already been paid!
Dear bornacatholic,
Cut that out. Don't you know that us Catholics don't know any Scripture??
sitetest
:) it is sorta funny this one verse is so routinely denied, ain't it?
Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained
*Your post made me think that maybe you think your sins are already forgiven and do not need to be repented of, Confessed, and penance done to try and repair the damage done by your sins.
I am surely wrong, right?
Dear bornacatholic,
I don't know which is funnier, the attempt to interpret the verse to mean something other than what it means, or the attempt to deny that it's even in the Bible, and then call folks who quote the verse "ignorant of Scripture."
LOL!
sitetest
It even gets funnier when the Church, which wrote and Canonised the New Testament, and is the Pillar and Ground of Truth, is accused of Teaching in opposition to the Canon She established.
It makes no sense. I mean, one would have to think Jesus' promises were unreliable. Worse, one would have to think Jesus Satan.
Jesus established His Church upon Peter. He promised to be with it until the end of time.
He sent the Holy Spirit it upon it to Teach it all Truth.
He said he who hears you hears me...
And I am supposed to seriously entertain the idea Jesus established a Church and let it fail. I am supposed to think Jesus sent the Holy Spirit upon the Church to teach it error. And, far from being the pillar and ground of truth, the Church Jesus esstablished is a fountain of evil and lies and heresies and we Christians who trust in Jesus' promises are really dupes who don't hear Jesus when the Church Teaches - we are Christians who are hearing Satan, not Jesus.
IOW, I am supposed to think that Jesus' words went out and returned void. IOW, I have to think Jesus an incompetent man or a liar. He did not do as He promised, according to our opponents..
IOW, Jesus abandoned His Bride and let her become a lying whore.
Now, I know that makes sense to some folks, but, I just don't get it...
Who IS this Jesus they think broke His promises and failed? He certainly is not the Divine Person I know.
Me Jesus keeps His promises. My Jesus does not abandon His Bride at the altar. My Jesus is with His Church - The Catholic Church - until the end of time. My Jesus is one who sent the Holy Spirit upon the Church to Teach it all truth -not lies.
I have no idea who their Jesus is. He appears to be a phony failure whose promises are untrustworthy
I understand you might have difficulty understanding this, but I'm not on a hamster wheel.
John 10:26-28 "But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand."
*When Jesus breathed upon His Apostles and gave them power to forgive or retain sins, what word or words of Our Lord and Saviour made you think of a hamster?
None of the Lord's words. Your words. You're running in circles like a hamster on a hamster wheel with your ritualization of FAITH.
bc:*Your post made me think that maybe you think your sins are already forgiven and do not need to be repented of, Confessed, and penance done to try and repair the damage done by your sins.
Well, GOO GOO G’JOOB, then
The Didache
"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
Ignatius of Antioch
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).
"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., 8).
Irenaeus
"[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses" (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
"[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness" (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus
"[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command" (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).
Origen
"[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"’" (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him" (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).
"Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28).
"[S]inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]" (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).
"And do not think, dearest brother, that either the courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given" (ibid., 51[55]:20).
"But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]" (ibid., 51[55]:22).
Aphraahat the Persian Sage
"You [priests], then, who are disciples of our illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny a curative to those in need of healing. And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so that he will not hide it from you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not make it public, lest because of it the innocent might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and by those who hate us" (Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).
Basil the Great
"It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles" (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).
John Chrysostom
"Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven" (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).
Ambrose of Milan
"For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only" (Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).
Jerome
"If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him" (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).
Augustine
"When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance" (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]).
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