Posted on 12/29/2006 4:47:11 AM PST by cowboyfan88
Edited on 12/29/2006 8:32:56 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
The assurance of salvation is the most important thing in life. It should be the number one concern of every human being. Sadly, too often it is not.
The good news is, the Bible teaches that you can know for sure that you are going to heaven. I John 5:13 says: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE..." Notice that this verse doesn't say, "that ye may HOPE that you can GET eternal life." It says that you can know that you have it, as a present possession.
How do you get it?
Acts 16:31 says: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." Notice again that it doesn't say, "Believe and you will someday be saved." It rather says, "Believe...and BE saved." Of course, the word "saved" makes a lot of people nervous.
A man told me once, "We don't speak in those terms at our church." But that's a shame, because the Bible uses this word over and over again. John Newton used it hundreds of years ago when he wrote that most beloved of all Christian hymns, "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that SAVED a wretch like me." You've probably even sung that song! Well, it was written by a man who was saved, and you can be saved too. Ephesians 2:8,9 says: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” “Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Here we see that people are saved "by grace," and "through faith." By God's grace. Through your faith. Faith and believing are the same thing. If you believe something, it means you have faith in it. Notice also the contrast to "works." Works are things that we can DO.
Most people think that they can be saved by the things that they do. If they don't do bad things, if they instead do good things, they think that they will be saved. The problem with this system is that you can never be SURE that you've done enough good things, and avoided enough bad things, to be saved. That's why the people who believe this are generally not sure they are saved. But Romans 4:16 says, "Therefore it is OF FAITH, that it might be BY GRACE, to the end THE PROMISE MIGHT BE SURE..." The only way you can be sure of salvation is by faith. If you had to do as little as lift your finger to be saved, you could never be sure that you had done it right.
But by faith we can believe that the Lord Jesus Christ did it right. We can be sure that He lived a sinless life. He never did anything wrong, He did everything right. A person like that didn't deserve to die. The Bible says that "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). But He was no sinner. Why did He have to die? Ah, He died OUR death. He died our death so that we could have His righteousness and be saved. II Corinthians 5:21 says: "For God made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."
Two thousand years ago, God laid all of our sins on Christ as He hung on Calvary. But that doesn't mean that everyone is saved! Two thousand years later, WHEN YOU BELIEVE that Christ paid for all of your sins, God then takes Christ's righteousness and puts it on you, completing the transaction that must be completed for the redemption of your soul.
I like to explain it this way. God says to us in the Bible that Christ paid for all of your sins. The only question is,
Do you BELIEVE God when He says that all of your sins are paid for? Do you TRUST Him when He says that?
If you do, the Bible says that you are SAVED.
If you don't, well, you just have to go on trying to pay for your sins in your own way. By being good. By not being bad. But these are things the Bible says you can't do well enough to be saved. Romans 4:5 says: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH is COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Titus 3:5 says: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
That big word "regeneration" is just a big word that means to be "born again," as the Lord talked about in John 3. But in both of these verses, you can see that salvation is by faith alone, and has nothing to do with your conduct. Most people think that we are all born GOOD, and on our way to heaven, and that we have to do something REALLY BAD to blow it and go to hell. But the Bible teaches the opposite. The Bible teaches that we are all born bad, and have to get saved by faith to go to heaven. Sometimes when we explain this, people then ask, "Why then should I be good?"
The answer to this question is, we should be good out of gratitude for God for saving us. Earlier I quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to show that we are saved "by grace" and "through faith." But the NEXT verse in Ephesians 2 tells us where "being good" comes in: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).
When we are saved, we are made "new creatures" in Christ (II Corinthians 5:17). But Ephesians 2:10 here says that we were "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works." That is, we were saved by faith, but we were saved FOR A PURPOSE, for a reason. God saved us and made us new creatures in Christ so that we would THEN do good works.
Most people get the cart before the horse, as the saying goes. Most people think you do good works, then God saves you. The Bible teaches that instead we are saved by believing, then we SHOULD do good works. Right after Titus 3:5 says we are saved "not by works of righteousness," three verses later it says, "...these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and profitable unto men."
Do you see it? We are not saved by good works, but after we are saved by faith, we are told we should do good works to please the One who saved us. Romans 6:23 says: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Here there is a contrast drawn between "wages" and a "gift." Wages are something that we EARN. We go to work, and work all week, and the boss pays us. If we want to be polite, we can say "thank you" when he hands us the check, but we don't have to. He OWES us that money, we EARNED it.
But a gift is something altogether different. You can't earn a gift. If you did, it wouldn't be a gift. That's why the verses BEFORE Romans 4:5 says, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." You can't earn a gift, you can only receive it. And the way you receive the gift of salvation is by faith, by believing God when He says your sins are paid for. Suppose you were a gambler, and racked up a debt of a million dollars to the Mafia. They threatened to kill you unless you paid up. A wealthy friend learns of your plight and comes to you and says, "Don't worry, I've paid your debt."
Now in this case, you must REALLY BELIEVE that your friend paid your debt. You must really TRUST your friend when he says that. That's why the other word that the Bible uses besides "believe" is "trust." Ephesians 1:12 talks about people... "...who first TRUSTED in Christ "In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13).
If you DON'T trust that your friend paid your gambling debt, then you will most likely continue to make payments to your bookie or loan shark. But if you DO trust your friend when he says that your debt has been paid, then you will rest comfortably in that knowledge, knowing that you've been "saved" from an awful fate, and you will be forever grateful to the one who saved you. That's how salvation works too.
In John 5:24, the Lord said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, but IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE." Here we see that the Bible teaches that not only are you saved if you believe on the Lord, you already possess eternal life, and it is NOT POSSIBLE for you to ever be condemned for your sins, for you are ALREADY passed "from death unto [eternal] life." Remember, Acts 16:31 says, "believe...and...be saved." It DOESN'T say, "Believe and be good." It doesn't even say, "Believe and be religious." It just says believe and be saved.
If you believe that Christ died to pay for all of your sins, and that you don't have to pay for any of them, the Bible says you are saved. In I Corinthians 15:1-4, the Apostle Paul identifies “the gospel” that he preached to the Corinthians, by which they were “saved”: “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; “And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures” You too can be among those who are “saved,” if you will simply put your faith in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 3:25).
Well, that's clear as mud. :O)
Happy New Year to you as well, Kolo, and to all our Freepers friends. I can assure you, that it is my great priviledge to have gotten to know you.
I think that is a fair analysis. I actually see more of a shifting in the Roman doctrine towards the Orthodox position. Thus, the Roman Church is moving towards Orthodox (and wants to) and away from the Augustine (Reformed) position.
It would be very tempting for the Orthodox to make concessions to the Catholics. While I disagree with the Orthodox theological position, I admire the Orthodox's position for standing fast to their core beliefs.
*You're welcome.
You have no interest in the love of Christ with out your being right first.
*You're wrong.
What I would like the Catholics to stop doing is pretending that there is any other way to heaven, yet saying Protestents have no salvation, as you just did.
* I didn't post that idea.
Because if I am presenting another Gospel then you are obligated by St. Paul in Galations 1:8-9 to declare us eternally condemned and a follower of demonic teaching. The Counsel of Trent stated this clearly; 146 times declaring any not supporting their tradition to be anathema.
*That Council was addressing those apostates who had left the Church. Your is a different situation. Unlike those condemned by Trent, you were not born into the Church.
Please state this clearly for everyone to understand so that we are not decieved.
* I do not think you are deceived in the matter. I do think you do not understand what we Teach.
*Wrong. You are not a Catholic and you are confused about what the Church has always taught. I post a link for you explaining how the Council knit together to, seemingly, contradictory, Traditions.
Now, the Church essentially states that anyone that is saved is saved through the Church. Not only Protestants, but even those rejecting Christ as Saviour, such as the Muslims, are potentially saved. About the only person that can't be saved is one who, knowing that the Church is necessary for salvation, leaves it none the less. Tell me, who, "knowing" that the Church is necessary for salvation would leave it? Everyone else is potentially "savable" (by the Church, of course). Apparently they get "credit" for lack of knowledge or understanding. Ignorance is bliss, apparently. This false ecumenism of the modern RCC is what bothers me most. It is dangerously universalist and leads to a thwarting of the Great Commission. Blessed Mother Teresa, who will almost certaily be a Saint one day, was an outright universalist and pantheist; apparently this is A-OK at the Vatican. Some frightening quotes from Blessed Teresa:
*She was neither.
There you have it. Apparently, sincerity of belief and strength of faith, regardless of the object of belief and faith, is all that is needed for salvation. No doubt, Muslim suicide bombers have a strong faith; enough that they are willing to die for it. I suppose the Church recognizes that faith and steps in to provide for their salvation?
Isn't it amasing how lefevbre made similar promises prior to his schism...
The Church Jesus established is not a denomination. All other Communities were started by men. They are denominations (to take a new name)
"It is a Latin claim that they and the Orthodox both constitute the Church. It mystifies many of us Orthodox as well, as can be seen in the asymmetry between our harsher polemics: their hardliners call us "Greek [or Eastern] schismatics", ours call them "Latin heretics"."
Not so mysterious. With the lifting of the mutual anathemas, which were actually personal anyway, any claim that either Rome or Orthodoxy are not part of The Church went away, not that it ever had any real meaning anyway, Rome's opinion to the contrary notwithstanding. Every individual diocese in the Roman Church and in the Orthodox Churches meets the definition of the fullness of The Church. So do those of the Monophysite Churches. What we have is a lack of communion, a schism based on a whole host of differences, not merely theological ones. We likely are not seeing heresy per se with the Romans unless it is in the dogma of papal infallibility. The usual suspect for heresy, the filioque, has been nuanced virtually out of existence by the Latins or metamorphosed into an acceptable theological statement, even if uncanonical. At any rate, schism doesn't mean that one church or the other is outside The Church. None of this applies to the various Protestant "ecclesial assemblies", as +BXVI put it, save perhaps for some Lutheran dioceses (it would be interesting to see the diptychs for those Lutheran dioceses to discover if any of the Lutheran dioceses here in the States meet the test; my hunch is that there are such dioceses).
"To my way of thinking the Latin faith is more-or-less a 'best Aristotelian approximation' to the Orthodox faith."
I agree, though you'll allow I am sure that there were other influences at work there. It is interesting to see what the scholastics did with Aquinas' debating points with an Aristotelian Mohammedan though. I believe, however, that cultural developments in the West and the divide between north and the Mediterranean south there contributed perhaps even more to where we see the Roman Church today. I do think they have tried to stick to the consensus patrum in the face of Protestantism but sometimes I think they tend to "proof text" the Fathers and conciliar documents to bolster their positions in an almost Protestant post hoc propter hoc way.
"From their point of view, it is, thus, difficult to see the distinctions between their faith and ours, except in the matter of ecclesiology."
This mystifies me. I honestly don't understand why they think the differences are so small or even non-existent. Why do you think that scholasticism leads to this?
"From ours, we see a large gulf (though narrowing somewhat since the accession to the papacy of Benedict XVI)."
+BXVI is the most patristic pope in over 1000 years. Sometimes when I read his sermons and other writings, its almost as if I am reading a new Father. he speaks our language, TRD. I do however, wonder if the Latins really understand what they have in him and where they could end up by the end of his papacy, which I hope will me very, very long!
That aside, I do find it sad, and tragic, that there has been no response to my major point - that the protestant revolutionaries dethroned Jesus and substituted a man-man service in place of the actions of Jesus.
Malachias prophesied the Pluperfect Sacrifice of the New Covenant ..
Malachias 1..
For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there issacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.
And Jesus Commanded we Worship God in the Pluperfect Sacrifice of the New Covenant...
And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins
MK...And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.
LK... And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.
"Do this for a commemoration of me"... This sacrifice and sacrament is to be continued in the church, to the end of the world, to shew forth the death of Christ, until he cometh. But this commemoration, or remembrance, is by no means inconsistent with the real presence of his body and blood, under these sacramental veils, which represent his death; on the contrary, it is the manner that he himself hath commanded, of commemorating and celebrating his death, by offering in sacrifice, and receiving in the sacrament, that body and blood by which we were redeemed.
Until the protestant revolutionaries appeared on the scene, the Churches - both Catholic and Orthodox - had (still have) Worship as prophesied by Malachias and Commanded by Jesus.
Since the 16th Century, the protestants have but a man made service.
They have accused the Church of instituting man-made ways to Salvation when the simple fact is it is they who chased Jesus out of the Sanctuary and substituted their man made service - sermons and songs
Getting bogged down in sniping about theological differences obscures the truth we must speak to our separated brethren.
What is rightfully theirs as Christians was long ago stolen by their protestant progenitors
If the Theology of the Catholic Church is too high a barrier for them to surmount, I have no problem with them joining an Orthodox Church.
They need to be part of Worship as Jesus Himself Commanded and it is only in my Church or your Church where that Sacrificial Worship is accomplished.
All else, really, is minor by comparison.
Our Christian brothers and sisters in the protestant communities are without Sacrificial Worship. It does not do anybody any good to stand outside our respective Churches and fight tooth and nail over Doctrinal Differences while our protestant brothers and sisters ar denied their birthright as Christians - access to Sacrificial Worship wherein they can partake of the Divine Nature and make progress along the road of theosis.
2 Peter...By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.
*Absent Worship of God as Jesus Commanded, absent the Eucharist, how is one to partake of Divine Nature?
I love my protestant brothers and sisters and I want them to have what is theirs through Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour.
Suggesting that no sin can "un-save" you is blasphemous.
You can be so-called "saved", slip off the path of righteousness, commit a murder, not ask God for forgiveness, and end up in hell. If you do not believe this, then you have little grounding in theology.
Now, if you ask for forgiveness and are truly sorry in your heart, God will forgive you and bring you back to him.
There is nothing sinful in proclaiming eternal life through faith in Christ.
Sin removes the believer from fellowship, but doesn't remove eternal life. Fellowship is required for further sanctification. Nothing can remove our initial positional sanctification upon which God the Holy SPirit regenerated our spirit and gave us eternal life. No sin can remove that, unless God denies the work of the Son on the Cross.
We were previously condemned in the old sin nature. Now we are saved through faith in Christ.
When we are given eternal life, God doesn't lie to us about His gift. It is indeed eternal. The Lake of Fire is the destination for those things which are good for nothingness when all things are sorted out. Those who have ever exhibited a saving faith nor a divinely good work in Him have something that is divinely righteous. It is on that basis and that basis alone that eternal life is given by grace solely by God and none other.
BTW, repentence has nothing to do with saying you are sorry. Repentence has nothing whatsoever to so with emotion. The comment you have made telegraphs your association with feeling sorry with thinking regret is righteous. Regret only promotes legalism, i.e. a method of living that avoids faith, but instead places hope upon our work and morality.
God doesn't need anything we can do nor how much effort we might place into resisting temptation. The entire issue is to put on the mind of Christ and allow God to do the work in us.
BTW, anything added to faith will void that faith. So if you associate repentence with just being a tearful milktoast and whining to God that you just really aren't worthy, you might just get your wish and He might just ignore you while you wallow around like a bumbling idiot. He doesn't love the arrogance of believers who can't turn back to Him on His grounds. Our Lord and Savior on the Cross wasn't some whining bumbling idiot hanging out like refuse. He kept the mind of Christ and remained faithful to God thr Father even while all sins of all humanity were imputed upo Him on the Cross and judged. He willingly sacrificed His spirit to the Father in payment for all sin, including those that are never confessed. We had nothing whatsoever to say in the matter. It was purely the work of God.
The only thing we can do is to place the same faith in Him that he placed in the Father, for it is the same faith.
You might be confused by the meaning of salvation as opposed to unction or annointing or sanctification or eternal life. These have different meanings in different contexts.
The book of Hebrews offers good Scripture regarding assurance of salvation.
Another feature of salvation are the 40 some odd things we receive when we are saved. One of those things includes the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit. Although one might sin, we remain His and only His.
If you have a child, the child is a member of your family. If the child rebels and declares he isn't your son, that doesn't change the fact that he is still your son. Neither does the Father reject those who He has called, the Holy Spirit has regenerated, and the exercised the same faith as the Son, no matter how heinous the crime. He might discipline us,...we might leave some predetined rewards 'sitting on the shelf in heaven' as eternal memorials of His faithfulness and our stupidity in turning away from Him, but He doesn't disown us. If He did disown us, the Father would immediately also disown the Son, because our only claim to eternal life was from the exact same faith as was recognized by God the Holy Spirit in the Son on the Cross as being righteous.
Some believers study salvation from the perspective of the covering or enabling work of the Holy Spirit. From that perspective it is true that sin interrupts our working through salvation. It doesn't mean the placement of eternal life in the spirit of the reborn believer is removed. Some might confuse eternal life with salvation with sanctification. Salvation is being saved from something. In the case of eternal life, salvation is being saved from eternal condemnation of our soul by it being placed in the Lake of Fire. In this sense, in God's impecable omniscience, He condemned us before He saved us. Once saved, always saved.
In the sense of an annointing or working our salvation as in sanctification or a continueing work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, sin indeed removes us from fellowship with the Holy Spirit, but sin doesn't remove the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We still have eternal life, but we aren;t advancing in our walk with Him when we sin. If it continues, He might call us home because if we place ourselves by our own volition into a situation where we are no nonger good for anything in His plan, He will remove us rather than allow us to be good for nothingness. Nothing keeps the saved believer from God, especially sin which has already been settled on the Cross once and for all.
I love my protestant brothers and sisters and I want them to have what is theirs through Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour.
I do have what is mine through Jesus Christ, my lord and savior. He gave me eternal life through his death,burial and resurrection. It is a free gift that I received and now I am a joint heir and have all the benefits that that allows. I don't have to do anything for it because he did it all. You have a religious system just as the Jews had theirs in the law and it won't please our Lord one bit. You are the one that is substituting man made service instead of faith in what Jesus did.
Happy New Year and GB!
He established a Church.
He established His Church upon Peter.
He gives us His Grace and uses it to build upon our fallen nature in and through the Church He established via His Sacramental system and especially the Last Supper/First Eucharist.
None of that is man made. ALL of that is but the action of Jesus. It is Jesus, working through the Priesthood He established, who offers Himself, as both priest and victim, as a Holy and Pure Sacrifice of Propitiation and we Christians, members of the Royal Priesthood, offer ourselves, our life, works, prayers, joys, sufferings, etc in conjunction with His Perfect Sacrifice and that is what makes our offering acceptable and pleasing to God.
Communities established in opposition to His Church are man made and are void of Sacrificial Worship which, as Malachias prophesied and Jesus Commanded is the way Jesus Himself taught us to Worship God. In those Communities, fellowship and service is a man made construct devoid of the actions of Jesus. You have no priesthood to offer Sacrifice. Your communities repudiated all that came before then and substituted man made religion comprised of sermons and songs.
Now, there is nothing wrong with that at all. IF those actions were linked to the actions of Jesus as He Commanded, then that would be an offering acceptable to God. Without Jesus, that is not an acceptable offering.
Gosh, you're so right.
I'm saved.
But I killed someone.
I was going to ask God for forgiveness so I won't go to hell, but you have convinced me I don't have to. I don't have to be forgiven for any bad that I do, because I'm already saved.
Thanks for making it so clear to me.
It is Grace which saves us from ourselves and our sinful nature. IF man could stay in the walk at all times and keep at all times the Law and Commandments then Christ death would not have been needed for us. No indeed our fathers of long ago could not keep them and they died. We as well can not keep them and we will die. We will die a physical death on this earth That is the wages of sin. The sin you commit on this earth after salvation you pay for on this earth. You will be held accountable. We must also even as believers give account of what we have said and doone before GOD. This is not the judgement of heaven or hell. You have passed that judgement. This is to show you GOD's Grace and mercy leetting you see your sin and is used to determine your eternal rewards in heaven.
Let's say you went to an office party and had a drink or two too much. You are drunk. Drinking is not a sin. Being drunk however is. You are driving home and you wreck. You die. Do you go to hell because you drank too much? No you die because you drank too much a direct result of your actions. You are still a forgiven sinner. But your price to pay for your actions was physical death. The same as if you were driving down the road and get angry at the man who cuts you off and call him a few choice words then in anger make a blunder that causes you to wreck and die. You die an unrepentant sin if you die with but one sin.
So who then can meet the standard and be saved? Not a one of us here in this thread can do so. We can not do it. Christ did it for us. Salvation our salvation does not depend on our deeds for no matter what we do can pay for our sins. We are born into sin through Adam and we die sinners. What saves us? The moment we except Christ our sins before and to come are taken from us and another takes our place before GOD of our shame. He is our Savior the Lamb of GOD.
You, me, nor anyone else can not with any certainity say we will not fall. One life altering event and it could push any of us into a bar or a deep depression using physical means to try and kill the pain. The result will be a miserable life by doing so. If we do not repent we will die a physical death because of it before our natural time. That is why we should try to be GOD dependent and walk in fellowship with the LORD once we except Christ. It makes the bumps easier to take that come our way. A person who excepts Christ and falls misses out on the fellowship with Christ while on this earth until He repents. It does not mean his eternal soul perishes for it has already been purchased and the price excepted before the Lord. It means your remaining time on earth will be miserable until like the Prodigal Son you wake up and see your state and return to the Father. The father waits for your return with open arms.
"I don't see support for the separation of a Christian after salvation due to Murder or Serial Adultery. I do see clearly the separation for lack of forgiveness."
I agree with you. It's not the sin that separates us per se, it's the failure to ask for forgiveness.
2 John 9...Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.
Second, you have forgotten that were I catholic or not, knowing the church statements and positions that it is the one source of salvation and remaining outside, as well as preaching and teaching against it, renders me: "Invincibly Ignorant".
* No it does not. It makes you culpable.
Many of the protestants on Freerepublic not only fit this definition, but espouse it.
*I understand. That is why I preach the truth to them
I am not as unfamiliar with the catholic teaching regarding the council of Trent as you suppose. It does include those that teach against the catholic church. Can you show me were it is clearly written in the Councils documents that it was only for those that were in the church?
* How could those anathemas apply to you who were unborn and not responsible for apostasy?
I still do not see a significant distinction between your statements; requiring you to 'be right', and your judging others.
DECREE ON ECUMENISM... UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO
INTRODUCTION
1. The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.
But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement toward unity is called "ecumenical." Those belong to it who invoke the Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, doing this not merely as individuals but also as corporate bodies. For almost everyone regards the body in which he has heard the Gospel as his Church and indeed, God's Church. All however, though in different ways, long for the one visible Church of God, a Church truly universal and set forth into the world that the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of God.
The Sacred Council gladly notes all this. It has already declared its teaching on the Church, and now, moved by a desire for the restoration of unity among all the followers of Christ, it wishes to set before all Catholics the ways and means by which they too can respond to this grace and to this divine call.
CHAPTER I
CATHOLIC PRINCIPLES ON ECUMENISM
2. What has revealed the love of God among us is that the Father has sent into the world His only-begotten Son, so that, being made man, He might by His redemption give new life to the entire human race and unify it.(2) Before offering Himself up as a spotless victim upon the altar, Christ prayed to His Father for all who believe in Him: "that they all may be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, so that the world may believe that thou has sent me".(3) In His Church He instituted the wonderful sacrament of the Eucharist by which the unity of His Church is both signified and made a reality. He gave His followers a new commandment to love one another,(4) and promised the Spirit, their Advocate,(5) who, as Lord and life-giver, should remain with them forever.
After being lifted up on the cross and glorified, the Lord Jesus poured forth His Spirit as He had promised, and through the Spirit He has called and gathered together the people of the New Covenant, who are the Church, into a unity of faith, hope and charity, as the Apostle teaches us: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one Baptism".(6) For "all you who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus".(7) It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the Church as a whole, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful. He brings them into intimate union with Christ, so that He is the principle of the Church's unity. The distribution of graces and offices is His work too,(8) enriching the Church of Jesus Christ with different functions "in order to equip the saints for the work of service, so as to build up the body of Christ".(9)
In order to establish this His holy Church everywhere in the world till the end of time, Christ entrusted to the College of the Twelve the task of teaching, ruling and sanctifying.(10) Among their number He selected Peter, and after his confession of faith determined that on him He would build His Church. Also to Peter He promised the keys of the kingdom of heaven,(11) and after His profession of love, entrusted all His sheep to him to be confirmed in faith(12) and shepherded in perfect unity.(13) Christ Jesus Himself was forever to remain the chief cornerstone (14) and shepherd of our souls.(15)
Jesus Christ, then, willed that the apostles and their successors -the bishops with Peter's successor at their head-should preach the Gospel faithfully, administer the sacraments, and rule the Church in love. It is thus, under the action of the Holy Spirit, that Christ wills His people to increase, and He perfects His people's fellowship in unity: in their confessing the one faith, celebrating divine worship in common, and keeping the fraternal harmony of the family of God.
The Church, then, is God's only flock; it is like a standard lifted high for the nations to see it:(16) for it serves all mankind through the Gospel of peace(17) as it makes its pilgrim way in hope toward the goal of the fatherland above.(18)
This is the sacred mystery of the unity of the Church, in Christ and through Christ, the Holy Spirit energizing its various functions. It is a mystery that finds its highest exemplar and source in the unity of the Persons of the Trinity: the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit, one God.
3. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,(21) and have a right to be called Christians as so correctly are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.