Posted on 12/29/2006 4:47:11 AM PST by cowboyfan88
Edited on 12/29/2006 8:32:56 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
"It doesn't matter if a man made law established under legitimate authority of national governance, it is still a disobedience of something God has provided man in His plan."
You err. God did not intend for us to follow the laws of Hitler and Stalin, though the laws were made under the national governance laws of the constitutions of Germany and the Soviet Union.
"Any implication that man can lose salvation,"
Oh, I see, once we make the declaration that "Jesus is my Lord and personal savior", there is no sin that we can commit that will separate us from God in the next life. Son, you are confused. Josef Stalin went to seminary.
An unrepentant murderer or adulterer does not sit next to Jesus in heaven.
"Any believer who says he never sins after salvation makes God a liar,"
Correct. And failure to repent and ask forgiveness will separate us from God in the next life. I don't know exactly how it will separate us, and both Catholic and Protestant theologians have wrestled with this for centuries; some have suggested there is some sort of waiting period (i.e., purgatory in the Catholic thinking). But almost all theologians would agree that not asking for forgiveness does separate us from God. We may not have asked God to forgive us from lying to Aunt Nelly about how her pie tasted, but God understands the severity of sin. The fact that Jesus said, "this is the first and greatest commandment" showed that some commandments are indeed more important and the penalty for breaking them more severe. Obviously if you do not love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, you will not be able to follow the other commandments, especially the one where Jesus said, "the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Great post, I believe it. Well stated.
1stPeter 1:2-5
The calling or divine invitation by God, which follows common grace, invites the spiritually dead unbeliever to believe in Jesus Christ, but does not invite the spiritually dead person to lordship salvation, commitment salvation, salvation by morality or keeping the Law, salvation through ritual or water baptism, salvation through emotion, salvation through inviting Christ into your life or heart. All these are systems of salvation by works, and they are excluded. When you add anything to faith in Christ, you have canceled the efficacy of that faith.
Great post name...
Although over the ages, I'm sure there are many with good intentions, trying to communciate the Gospel by different mechanisms, probably just as easily we might counter when an idea pops up in our minds which is from our categorizing of doctrines in our heart, we discover something blasphemous. I wonder how many of those times our ideas catching the inccuracy aren't in themselves a temptation bringing Christ down to man, rather than elevating man to Christ.
Here are some examples off the cuff, of how some people describe salvation:
Invite Jesus into your heart...
Counter: Inviting Jesus into our corrupt heart is like a barker outside a strip joint inviting Christ in for a drink and entertainment. We aren't saved by inviting Him into corruption, we are saved by faith in Him and allowing God the Holy Spirit to regenerate our heart.
Lordship Salvation:
Counter: after salvation, whenever we sin, we have rebelled from our Lord, thereby rendering His work of the Cross ineffective to keep us from sinning, but then are tempted to appeal to our works fro salvation thinking that if we abide by Him as Lord then we will be good enough for Him to save us,....again a false thinking.
Salvation is not morality.
When we sin after salvation, we don't get away with anything.
We might leave rewards, which have already been predestined and awaiting to be awarded to us in heaven,..we might simply fail to do what is required of us so that Christ is free to reward us at the bema seat. That simply menas those rewards sit in heaven on the shelf for all eternity as an eternal memorial to what happens when we sin.
BTW, making a ststement isn't the key to salvation. Only faith in Him only without anything added is required.
Amen!
One example, Operation Exodus gets no play in the media, but has successfully led a lot of homosexuals out of that lifestyle.
Those you mention were still baptised. They were spoken to, believed and were baptised.
I'm trying to walk the straight and narrow, and trusting in the Mercy of God.
And when Jesus established Baptism and Confession, and the Eucharist, and Exteme Unction, and the Priesthood, and Confirmation, and Marriage, He was just kidding and when, at the Last Supper, He instituted the Eucharist/Mass/Divine Liturgy, He was just kidding too, I guess.
Y'all got a nice salvific ideology. Too bad it never appears in Scripture or anywhere in the Church until the protestant revolutionaries just started to make such stuff up.
Frankly, your entire post is man made. It has nothing to do with the Church Jesus established. It has never been a teaching of any Pope or a teaching of any Bishop who holds an authoritative office via Apostolic Succession nor has it ever been taught by any Ecumenical Council.
I know Burger King tells us to have it our way but the King of King expects to be heard and obeyed
Come on...Salvation is easy. You don't have to do a blessed thing...Sin away, brother. All sins are the same and all sins are already forgiven. Well, they are covered-up, at least. It doesn't matter what community of believers you throw-in with. Everybody is a member of that invisible church where doctrinal disputes are inconsequential.. Can't you see that?
Those with a saving faith can see it.
I received Christ at an early age. Around 12 years old. I have fallen away many times especially in my youth and early adult life. Was I ever headed for hell? No! When The person answers their call of salvation they are called out at that point. Despite all the wrong I did GOD had a plan. He let me go here and there and He let me come back. Then He dealt with me in a way that changed how I looked at Him and my entire life in general.
GOD still talks to man literally & GOD still works one on one in mans life. Some churches can not except this likely Baptist included. I went through something 21 years ago that has stayed with me.
It was a low point in my life full of a lot of questions and a lot of fear and hurt. I was a widower of about three months at the ripe old age of 26. I had after that met someone a divorcee who had been through a very abusive marriage and had developed a loving relationship with. I met her after my wife died.
One day we were on a date of sorts a trip with her and her kids to a movie. We met at a mall and when she got there she was out of sorts. We went inside to a food court and sat down. Within a very few minutes before my eyes she became a quadriplegic. I rushed her to the hospital while on the way she was describing to me her going into the presence of eternity. She was am CNA at a nursing home and had sat with many dieing patients. We got to the hospital she made it. A week passed no movement. Two preachers came in to Lay on Hands for healing for her. Four persons present. Me, her, and the two preachers.
What happened next changed me. We all felt the presence of The Holy Spirit. But one person in the room heard what was to be said. "It's going to be OK." and a peace a very overwhelming peace I have never known since. I heard the voice and only I heard it. It had me quite perplexed as to the meaning and why.
Things didn't get better they got worse. I went through a period of a couple of days where I became a very numb person void of any feeling and emotion. Then a Nun saw me and took me into her office at the hospital and said what's wrong. I explained how I felt and she said You must rest. You have been here every night your body is wore out. She was right. A day off and I was OK. But what about what I heard? Hey things are gonna be great she's going to be OK. OK GOD do your healing. It didn't happen. She did get back her arms and hands though a miracle in itself.
Next step. What to do? I loved her. Walk away? Can't. Marriage? People saying are you nuts? What to do? I prayed a bit and followed my heart. I knew my love for her. and two months later we were married in the hospital Chapel. The nuns, a Priest, and our preacher were present :>} We still have the cross the Nun gave us as a wedding present. They protected her for three months from her ex-husband a man who wished to watch her die.
OK GOD now I understand. Opps here comes the other shoe to fall. Next day her parents disowned her the ones who were taking care of her kids while she was in the hospital. Now I had to go trick her parents into letting them go with me and I took them to my parents for their safety. They were in danger is all I can say on the matter. Yes LORD things are really looking up. Now what was it you said? It's going to be OK?
Time went on she was transferred to rehab for another 3 months in the hospital then she came home. A 26 year old became step father to girls 12 & 14 and a care giver to his wife.
With some hindsight I began to understand what GOD was telling me. He was there. He was not going to take it all away and make it all better. He was there to walk with us through it. Another thing many churches do not teach. Sometimes bad things happen to show the full power of GOD's mercy and to make the person as Paul described it GOD dependent in their existence. He didn't take Paul's thorn in the flesh away nor has my wife whom I am happily married to now 21 years walk. Oh we heard it all especially from Charismatics. If you only have faith you will walk. WRONG! If you have faith GOD will help you move the wheel chair and provide for your needs in the mean time adversity is his tempering fire he uses on those He loves to temper them them and to mold and forge them into his will and purpose.
Hey I'm a sinner. I still fall. I will till I die and my walk as much as I would like and desire it to be so is not a daily one. GOD is there to pick me up. When a person excepts Christ he is in the Shepherds Fold and the Good Shepherd does not let his flock perish.
If what some in here are saying once I backslid in my youth I was beyond GOD's help. A back sliding sinner condemned to hell. No I do not believe that. GOD as the father of the Prodigal Son will allow you to wonder but He will be there to welcome you home. No not even Peter the one of whom Christ said "Upon this rock" was free from the truths of life and his sins while on this earth. These men were not likely the most docile men of their time but rather were hardened men of their day due to their occupations and lives. They were human just as we are. We have as much privileges in our relationship with the LORD as they did and still do. They are our Brothers.
Those who do not have faith, tend to look for hope elsewhere. For example they search the Scriptures for something to substitute for saving faith. They look for morality, rituals, oathes, promises, good works, anything they can add onto faith. The only problem is that anything added to faith voids its efficacy in its use by the Holy Spirit to regenerate the spirit.
Sacrifices and adhering to rituals or living in his Golden Rules and doing in private without notice the works of his ministry?
For quite a while my church services were the preacher on TV. To be honest I could not go back to my church now nor likely any church for that matter. I attended a Bible Thumping church where the preacher jumped across pews LOL. A very good man and a good servant to the LORD who has gone on. The man who preformed our marriage ceremony 21 years ago.
But such a service I would disrupt now. Even the music as much as I enjoy it at times can be a torment. I have some physical issues that popped up about 13 years ago which at times makes even grocery shopping a near impossibility. I have a type of seizures that are sensory triggered and place my upper torso into severe spams. Certain audio and visual stimulation triggers it. I would disrupt the service and I would by no means enjoy the service. Ironically when I was working my shifts were during church services. When I had to retire on disability and had the time I was not able to take it.
I feel in my heart I am doing what GOD has called me to do in my life and I'm where I need to be.
About 10 years ago before I lost the rest of my abilities to study and concentrate for any length of time went through a very extensive period of reading scripture. As if it were a window being opened to me soon to close. A pressing feeling placed upon me to read and read some more. I was able to focus my prayer as well. Now the LORD's prayer to say it and not have my train of thought leave me is a challenge. That's OK the Holy Spirit Intercedes for what the mind and body can not. GOD knows my needs and provides.
***Those you mention were still baptised. They were spoken to, believed and were baptised. ***
My point is they had the Holy Spirit before being baptized. Can an unbeliever have the Holy Spirit that was poured out? If they can, then can a man serve two masters?
The following shows that such signs as Cornelius had were to FOLLOW salvation, yet they came BEFORE baptism for them.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
***
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
"I don't care if its walking an aisle,being baptized,confessing sins or standing on your head it won't please God."
F, do you believe we have to "please" God in order to be saved?
I think this is the most dancing I've seen around scripture, saying one doesn't need baptism. I expect it when talking about Our Lady, but baptism?? whew.
"The only true church is an invisible body of people who put their faith only in what Jesus did on the cross."
Who gave you this concept and why did he not think the Resurrection worth mentioning?
hahaha... man, you mean to tell me I've been going about this all wrong?!!? I better get with the program.
I'm afraid you've completely lost me with the 'serving two masters' thing.
If you care to, I think it would be easier for me if you simply stated where you stand regarding baptism.
Do you think people need to be baptised or do you think all they need to do is believe?
"making a statement isn't the key to salvation."
Correct. That's why the landmark shouldn't be running around proclaiming their salvation is due to accepting (out loud) that Jesus is their lord and personal savior.
Right after that seems to come sinning such as you have never seen. Perhaps that's why it is so nauseating, to see someone that thinks they are always going to be in the "saved" condition.
NO, they are not. There will be a wide gulf in the next life between them and God, of that I am sure.
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