Replies

--I am convinced that as more Evangelicals understand the Christ-centeredness of Mary, more and more Evangelicals will join the Catholic Church.

But the evangelicals want Christ, not Mary as the only center of 'veneration'. I only pray to God, I will never kneel before a statue of my good friend Steve to ask him to pray for me. If Steve is considered more than just a good friend, indeed, giving him some stake in my salvation, that is false, and that is putting him at some level equal to Christ. Indeed ALL men, except Christ alone are fallen, as was Mary.

Luke, when writing all the truth that he could find in his Gospel to Theophilus did not mention that Mary's pain at the foot of the Cross was somehow redemptive. Nor did he mention that she was born immaculately. Nor did he make much mention of this special status that she is now held by the RCC, and perhaps held that way since way early in the church. Yes, she is known to be blessed beyond all other women for being the mother of Jesus, but nothing else. Read the first chapter of Luke especially, and then the rest.

Luke 1: 3it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; 4so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

Now according to the RCC this infallible Gospel must be truth. If that is what it is, then according to what Luke himself wrote this Gospel is all that Luke could find about the life and teachings of Christ, and it should be all that one needs for salvation. Does this Gospel teach all that the RCC stands for? The Protestants say not.

And that is why the RCC is considered heretical by the Protestants, and no matter how you make Mary the selling point, at least this Reformed believer will never think to fall to the RCC's heresy.

Yes, there are some that cross the Tiber, as they say. But many in the past fell for the various heresies. Does this mean those old moldy heresies are right? No. Just means people really do not change, and those that are not strong in the Scripture fall for such. When dust gathers on the Word, heresy gathers on the Church.

--I am convinced that as more Evangelicals understand the Christ-centeredness of Mary, more and more Evangelicals will join the Catholic Church. But the evangelicals want Christ, not Mary as the only center of 'veneration'.

It appears to me that you are misreading the post you were responding to. The honor that Catholics give to Mary is centered on Christ, it is just one of the many ways that we honor Christ. There is no way that you can read the post you exerpted and take away that Mary is the center of Catholic veneration. Christ is, so you are in agreement with Catholics. Your beef is with the way is which the honor for Christ is exemplified by Catholics respect for His mother. I know that you have heard this all before, so I will not get into it with you again. I do know that if we seek Christ with all our hearts and honor Him as we know best, He will not abandon us. Rather, He will draw us closer to Him.

Now according to the RCC this infallible Gospel must be truth. If that is what it is, then according to what Luke himself wrote this Gospel is all that Luke could find about the life and teachings of Christ,

That is a very unsafe assumption, especially given John 20:30; 21:25.

and it should be all that one needs for salvation.

Another "Protestant" and unscriptural assumption imposed upon Scripture.

It all comes down to these basic working assumptions that lie behind and beneath the Scripture itself.

-A8

But the evangelicals want Christ, not Mary as the only center of 'veneration'

If you're only venerating Christ, you aren't giving him the worship of latria to which he is entitled as God incarnate.

Now according to the RCC this infallible Gospel must be truth. If that is what it is, then according to what Luke himself wrote this Gospel is all that Luke could find about the life and teachings of Christ, and it should be all that one needs for salvation.

??? You also believe that Luke's Gospel is truth, do you not? So do you believe that the Gospel of Luke is "all that one needs for salvation"? "Luke alone"?

Luke didn't say it contained all truth, or all truth concerning Mary, or all truth needed for salvation. He said he diligently gathered it together that Theophilus might know the exact truth concerning that which he had been taught. That's all.

But many in the past fell for the various heresies.

We call them "Protestants".

Does this mean those old moldy heresies are right? No. Just means people really do not change, and those that are not strong in the Scripture fall for such.

There are plenty of people who are fine Scripture scholars in the Catholic church, and some of them are ex-Protestants. The Protestant conceit that nobody who knows Scripture can be a Catholic is just that: a conceit.

Now it is true that nobody who accepts one of the various Protestant theological systems as truth can be a Catholic, but to equate any Protestant theological system with "knowledge of Scripture" per se is precisely to beg the question.

Luke, when writing all the truth that he could find in his Gospel to Theophilus did not mention that Mary's pain at the foot of the Cross was somehow redemptive. Nor did he mention that she was born immaculately. Nor did he make much mention of this special status that she is now held by the RCC, and perhaps held that way since way early in the church. Yes, she is known to be blessed beyond all other women for being the mother of Jesus, but nothing else.

Unfortunately, YOU are WRONG:

And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. (Luke 1:41)

We need to pay attention to what Elizabeth says here. She DOES NOT say "Blessed art thou among women, and EVEN MORE BLESSED is the fruit of thy womb." She declares that the blessing that exists in the Holy Mother is they SAME BLESSING that exists for Christ. And because we know that the Blessed Virgin Mary is not divine, and we know that she is not the Savior, we have to look for the highest common denominator that can exist possibly between our Lord and His Mother. And the only possibility is that Mary is and always has been protected from the stain of original sin. We can deduce this because man WAS NOT created in a state of sin, man chose this state. And God CHOSE to protect His Mother from this stain at the moment of her conception. When the Blessed Mother responds to Elizabeth, she says, "My soul doth magnify the Lord." (Luke 1:46) Now then it is IMPOSSIBLE for a soul that bears the stain of sin to MAGNIFY the Lord, a stained soul can only OBSCURE the Lord.

And that is why the RCC is considered heretical by the Protestants, and no matter how you make Mary the selling point, at least this Reformed believer will never think to fall to the RCC's heresy.

Yet, the problem is that the history of the Reformation has been that Protestants cannot even agree with each other for very long.

I believe that the Apostle Peter showed incredible forsight when he wrote:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16)

Hey, brother, Merry Christmas to you.

Here's the thing. Five of the Apostles wrote parts of the NT, either Gosepls or Epistles: Matthew, John, Peter, James, and Jude. But all 12 (with Matthias the successor of Judas) went far and wide teaching about Jesus; and those who didn't leave written gospels or letters, did leave disciples and successors in the churches they planted.

These disciples and successors preached what they had been taught, and a lot of this Apostolic doctrine then was written down: as sermons, hymns, liturgical texts, etc.

And you know what? All these ancient Churches believe all those Catholic/Orthodox doctrines about the "spotless" Virgin who was hailed by an angel, not as "sinner-woman" but as "Full of Grace."

To read more about the million Assyrian and Chaldeans in Iraq --- many of them Aramaic-speaking-- who have been Christians since the preaching of St. Thomas in the First Century AD, read THIS FreeRepublic post.

And don't wait too long to get acquainted with them, because they're being exiled, tortured and killed as we speak.

Good post, 1Cor 2:4-15 sums my first thoughts.

both by my doctrine and by my preaching were not persuasive words of wisdom (such as Aristotle's empiricism or Socrates' rationalism) but were in demonstration of the Spirit, and His Omnipotence....

I have my hands full renewing my mind and keeping it on the thinking of Christ continually. I don't see Christ asking Mary for assistance in performing His duties to the Father.