Posted on 12/19/2006 9:32:45 AM PST by xzins
So if I sit in my little kayak out back and am surrounded by water while someone rains water on my head, then that is OK.
Good think that one got figured out. :>)
Pouring is pouring.
Actually, I didn't google. I picked up my old trust greek texts and read the sections on baptism again. I've read that section a few times since Greek in seminary, but it's always good to refresh one's memory.
I'm not a regular user of Greek, but I've had more than most, I reckon.
An expert on these threads -- one who teaches it at a higher ed level -- has been pinged. Maybe CDL will address the baptizo word.
I thought you were Roman Catholic. Where'd I get that idea?
"The six waterpots says so."
Six water pots say so, I don't remember anything about talking water pots. Day stars, yes, donkey, yes, and the promise of stones crying out, yes, but water pots?
We know they didn't plunge their hands into the water pots, because no one would have tried the wine in the first place if the pots were the receptacle for the water dirtied by washing.
It was poured out.
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/15545508.htm:
With the cry of Let Jordan roll! from the pulpit, the spray from fire hoses rained down on a pulsating crowd of worshippers, celebrating salvation and renewal Sunday in a mass baptism that covered nearly a block of Read Street.
Dueling praise bands from Columbia and Charlotte blasted a brassy, joyful noise. Men, women and children, dressed in white cotton emblematic of innocence, raised their hands to the heavens.
One young boy in his mothers arms cried in apparent fear, but most of the tears were the kind reserved for heartfelt thanks.
Just one sprinkle of this holy water can wash you from the inside out, shouted Apostle O.L. Sowell of Raleigh as leaders of the United House of Prayer for All People wiggled the arc of spray over the packed street.
But pouring that gets one thoroughly wet is not sprinkling and sprinkling is not pouring that gets someone thoroughly wet.
Doesn't your Greek Lexicon differentiate "baptizo" from "rhantizo", or has it been ecumenized and watered down like this mindless article?
Bingo ---
Oh, so you held them under pouring water until they got thoroughly wet and clean. And then you took them out of the pouring water, right? You didn't just "sprinkle" some water on them, did you? If you did, then they would not be clean, and your wife would make you baptize them again the right way.
I dunno where you got that idea, but I'm Russian Orthodox (ROCOR).
**Hard-core calvinists...**
Isn't that what Michael Servetus (sp) met up with?? /sar
Several years ago I read a very interesting book. WHICH BIBLE edited by David Otis Fuller.
In it he printed and excerpt from Dean Burgon in the late 1880's. Burgon showed how the English language had changed from the time of Elizabeth to now(1880).
Words like "discover and prevent" today do not mean what they ment in the 1500's.
We can see it in the change of meaning of words by the Hippie culture 45 years ago. Words like "Funky" (cowardly, is now 'hip', cool', 'with it') and "Rip off" (tear off is now 'steal', 'gyp', 'con') do not mean the same they did then.
Burgon also points out how the GREEK language has changed over the years also from 300 BC to 400AD.
Consider this..In 300BC the word Baptize ment immerse, submerge,or dip.
By 125AD Baptism ment sprinkle, wash, dip,immerse. We have the Greek writings today to prove it.
So, your beloved "baptism" may not have been a dipping after all.
I think I'm on your side in this debate.
I think the transition of a word over that period of time is certainly of interest. It's short-sighted to ignore such information.
Regardless the Greek language meaning, I can testify that when I am in fellowhip with God through faith in Christ, I find I may volitionally intend my faith to be the same as the mind of Christ only by placing faith in Him in my thinking.
As I study Bible doctrine is is brought into me and worked upon by the Holy Spirit as long as I remain in faith with Christ and the doctrine changes from a simple mental GNOSIS, to an EPIGNOSIS in my heart, but only as I remain faithful through Him.
I sense a very real parallel to the physical act of baptism by water, even immersion, as a rehearsal of my thinking to remain in faith in Him in all things, while the Holy Spirit performs His work in me.
If I breath while underwater, it is similar to using my volition to do something other than what He intends, resulting in the exhale of EPIGNOSIS not being successful.
Am I the only one here who perceives this thype of spiritual association with the act of water baptism, or do others find an actual physical change to our bodies during the process (other than getting all wet.)?
The meaning of the word at the time the New Testament was written is what is important. 125 AD is too late to have any bearing on the writings of the New Testament.
***The meaning of the word at the time the New Testament was written is what is important. 125 AD is too late to have any bearing on the writings of the New Testament.***
Think so? Paul's letters were written about 60 years before and there were probably some still alive who remembered him.
John's gospel was written even later and there were definitly some alive then (125 AD)who remembered him.
If the word could mean sprinkling at the time the Holy Spirit inspired the writings of the New Testament, please explain why no NT Greek Lexicon bears that out.
Post # 13 again...
Mar 7:4 And [when they come] from the market, except they wash(baptizo), they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, [as] the washing (baptismos)of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing (baptismos)of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Did they immerse themselves each time they came from the marketplace? Did they really immerse their tables?
This was RITUAL cleansing BEFORE meals, not washing up AFTER meals. Please notice what word is used..Baptizo
Lev 14:6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall DIP them and the living bird in the blood of the bird [that was] killed over the running water:
Not much blood for an immersion is it.
And again, no evidence from a NT Greek Lexicon to support your understanding of these verses.
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