Three Reasons the Church’s Enemies Hate The Immaculate Conception

TFP ^ | 12.08.06 | Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

[trisham]

Still, we don't worship saints. Or Mary.

[xzins]

venerate

worship

a difference without a distinction

[adiaireton8]

Just because you are unaware of the distinction does not mean that there is no distinction.

-A8

[P-Marlowe]

We don't venerate our famous Christians, we study them. They're humans.

We only "venerate" C.I. Scofield, the patron saint of dispensational lawyers.

Notice the Halo in the shape of a Bible. It is the sola scriptura halo. I'm hoping to earn one someday for all my hard work here at free republic.

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. (Luke 11:52 KJV)

It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

[trisham]

And?

[trisham]

LOL!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

What if ..... you found out that Calvin's ideas were wrong? Could you admit it? What would you do? Have you thought of that possibility?

Oh, believe me. He's tried.

And as God has willed, he seems to be finding a lot of truth among the Reformer's works.

"I do not doubt that there has been some ignorance in their having reproved this mode of speech, -- that the Virgin Mary is the 'Mother of God' -- I cannot dissemble that it is found to be a bad practice ordinarily to adopt this title in speaking of this Virgin: and, for my part, I cannot consider such language as good , proper, or suitable…for to say, the Mother of God for the Virgin Mary, can only serve to harden the ignorant in their superstitions." -- John Calvin to the Foreigners’ Church in London, 10/27/1552

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And Mary.

[trisham]

Mary is the Mother of God, however. Regardless of what is one's religion, if one is a Christian, I can't see how it can be otherwise.

[wmfights]

"Certainly St Paul left someone in charge of the churches he founded when leaving to preach elsewhere,..."

That's not what Scripture shows. Paul never directly appointed a Bishop. He always put his authority equal to or behind the local leaders of a church. He taught what the qualities a congregation should look for in a leader, especially charismatic gifts.

[wmfights]

Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry."

A pretty self serving position. Especially in light of the fact that no record exists of the Apostles appointing Bishops, or more importantly putting this in Scripture. The top down hierarchy developed later.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If Mary were the mother of God, then that means someone or something preceded God.

And that's absurd.

Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ who would be born of a virgin in order to fulfill prophecy and to provide Jesus' human incarnation.

It's just not that difficult. All the bells and whistles detracts from the glory that is God's alone. People who venerate, worship and/or pray to anyone other than the Trinitarian God of all creation do so at their peril.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen. The answer is always there in Scripture.

[bonfire]

Amen.

[nanetteclaret]

Did you not read? The passage I quoted was written by Clement in AD 80 - during the time some of the Epistles were being written, and before John wrote anything.

1 Timothy 3:1-7
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a BISHOP, he desireth a good work. A BISHOP then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."

Where do you suppose the bishops came from in the first place?

[nanetteclaret]

P.S. Paul was writing to Timothy in the above passage.

I Timothy 1:1-2
PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; Unto TIMOTHY, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

[wmfights]

P.S. Paul was writing to Timothy in the above passage.

I don't see Paul appointing Bishops here, does your "tradition" tell you that this is what he is doing? I see Paul instructing what the qualities in the individual should be. The actual selection was determined by the congregation in the early church.

The top down hierarchy developed later.

The only Apostle who might be considered a Bishop is James, the brother of Jesus, but if you read Acts 15 you will see that decisions involved the entire congregation.

[armydoc]

I was simply trying to understand where you are coming from. If you think evil is synonymous with sinful, then either you think there are no natural evils (e.g. major birth defects, tsunamis that kill thousands of peoples, childhood leukemia, miscarriages, etc.) or you think that such things are sinful.

No, I don't believe such non-human things such as diseases or natural disasters are "sinful". They are, however, the result of sinful man- such things came about only after the initial rebellion of man towards God. If you want to say those things are "evil", fine. I don't have a problem saying that "sinful" is a subset of "evil".

[Frank Sheed]

If Mary were the mother of God, then that means someone or something preceded God.

And that's absurd.

Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ who would be born of a virgin in order to fulfill prophecy and to provide Jesus' human incarnation.

Jesus Christ is a Divine Person with a human nature and a Divine nature. Therefore, He is God-Man (read the references in John in which He reveals His relation to the Father speaking as a man). Since Jesus is both God and man, and since Jesus was born of a woman, Mary, His mother, is the mother of God. Doubt that if you will, but it is the literal Truth. It doesn't mean she anteceded the Divine; it is, thus, a Mystery called the Incarnation ("and the Word was made Flesh and made His dwelling among us"). This is why the Orthodox use the term "Theotokos". If you doubt that, you don't know anything about the Trinity. Your argument is pure Arianism against which St. Athanasius fought a mighty battle. Jesus was not JUST human. He was God-man.

[Coleus]