Three Reasons the Church’s Enemies Hate The Immaculate Conception

TFP ^ | 12.08.06 | Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

[trisham]

In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Three Reasons the Church’s Enemies Hate The Immaculate Conception, xzins wrote: Jesus knew before it happened.

Are you suggesting that the devil is more powerful than our Lord?

*************

Sorry. I misunderstood your last post.

No, I am not suggesting that the devil is more powerful than God. Please read my previous posts.

[trisham]

I'm not sure what point you are making.

[kawaii]

You're suggesting then that no teachings after St Paul are valid?

Should we do away with the Book of Revelation since St John wrote it after St Paul's letter to the Thesselonians?

[wagglebee]

If memory serves me, EVERYTHING that St. John wrote was AFTER St. Paul's martyrdom.

[nanetteclaret]

What I'm saying is that the traditions of Ignatius, etc. are the SAME ONES that the Apostle Paul taught by word or epistle. You will get a clearer picture if you read the writings of the Early Fathers.

[nanetteclaret]

I forgot about that one - I think it was the earliest writing. Excerpts are in the "Faith of the Early Fathers" book.

[blue-duncan]

"Chapter 15. Bishops and Deacons; Christian Reproof. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.


Well, so much for the "tradition" of apostolic succession!

[nanetteclaret]

Sorry, what is your point?

[adiaireton8]

Well, so much for the "tradition" of apostolic succession!

If you knew the fathers, you would know that nomination of candidates for the episcopal office by the laity was not uncommon, but that ordination of the selected candidate was always by a bishop, not by the laity (since laity were not themselves ordained, they could not give what they did not have).

-A8

[Nihil Obstat]

Not quite. How the bishops were chosen may have changed, but not apostolic succession. Consecration hasn't changed.

[armydoc]

Babies haven't sinned (because they can't). Persons who are severely mentally disabled haven't sinned (again, they can't).

I beg to differ. A clear, mature, adult mind is not a prerequisite to sinning. Our very human nature is sinful. Our actions, from the moment of our birth, are sinful. Psalm 51:5(NIV) "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." My kids have all shown overt sinful acts from an early age. Open defiance. Greed. Conversely, a baby or feeble-minded adult can posess faith. Witness the in-utero John the Baptist's display of faith when the in-utero Saviour passed by. We sin from birth because we are sinners from birth. It is our nature to the core. Lack of cognitive recognition of the sinfulness of an act does not negate its sinfulness. Now, a better argument is if a young child or a feeble-minded adult can have a "saving faith". I believe they can (again, I cite the John the Baptist example).

[adiaireton8]

What do you think sin is? What is the difference between sin and evil?

-A8

[kawaii]

Then it must not be part of the church for xzins, since it didn't come BEFORE St Paul told the Thesselonians not to forget what he'd taught them.

[Nihil Obstat]

that chapter also clarifies how the earliest Christians understood Paul's teaching of the requirements to be a bishop.

[wmfights]

How the bishops were chosen may have changed, but not apostolic succession.

Isn't one of the central claims of this theory that the Apostles directly appointed Bishops?

[wagglebee]

St. Paul was martyred sometime between 65 and 67 AD. The EARLIEST accepted date for any of the Gospels is Mark in about 65 AD. NONE of the other Gospels or anything other than the Pauline epistles were written prior to Paul's death. This is not "Catholic tradition," this is fact supported by other early Church writings and essentially ALL Biblical scholars. To illustrate, Acts describes Paul's martyrdom, it COULDN'T have been written during his lifetime.

[kawaii]

you should cc xzins...

i can't beleive anyone would interpret St Pauls words the way xzins does, so as to exclude anything Paul hadn't taught.

[Nihil Obstat]

Isn't one of the central claims of this theory that the Apostles directly appointed Bishops?

the appointment doesn't matter. The consecration is what matters for apostolic succession.

Right now, the communist government of China is trying to appoint "Catholic" bishops. They are not real bishops (or even real Catholics). Just because they are appointed bishop by the government of China doesn't mean anything. They would only be real bishops if they were consecrated by a bishop acting in good faith with the Church.

hope that helps

[wagglebee]

I meant to ping you to 396, sorry.

[nanetteclaret]

It's not just a theory - it's the truth. There is historical evidence to back it up. Here is an example:

Clement's Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 (A.D. 80):
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry."

Clement was St. Paul's friend, and is mentioned in Philippians 4:3: “And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with CLEMENT also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.”