Three Reasons the Church’s Enemies Hate The Immaculate Conception

TFP ^ | 12.08.06 | Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

[xzins]

The scripture says that Jesus knew who would betray Him before it even happened. It appears to be set/fixed/predestined.

That agrees with what I was saying.

[nanetteclaret]

Google is your friend. Here is one entry, which shows the Catacombs with art work/icons.

http://thenagain.info/webchron/WestCiv/EarlyChristian.html

There are many other entries. Just Google "Early Christian Art" and "Early Christian Icons."

[kawaii]

i don't see how that shows predestination. That said even the pieces of silver were prophesied.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

As DrE is fond of pointing out: there isn't a lot to worry about -- or even be pained about -- if we remember who's in control.

Well, I'm only repeating what I've read in Scripture. There isn't a lot to worry about for the those whom God has graced with faith in Jesus Christ. He came to redeem us and He will lose none of us.

"I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not" -- Isaiah 65:1

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -- John 16:33

The rest of the world has plenty to worry about, but they won't. Their eyes have been shut to His light; their ears are closed to His word; and their hearts are made of stone. All who seek Him as Lord and Savior will by found by Him because, whether they know it or not, the Holy Spirit is leading them home.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." -- Romans 1:16

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I'd bet your real satisfaction comes earlier in the day when you're at the pulpit.

[trisham]

The scripture says that Jesus knew who would betray Him before it even happened. It appears to be set/fixed/predestined.

*************

And when supper was done, (the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him,

Predestined by the devil?

[blue-duncan]

"It's only folks who've broken with these traditions who try to ignore who gave them to the church."

How can you break a tradition that you don't know? That's why I'm asking what are the traditions that Paul is referring to? The only traditions I see in both letters to the Thessalonians are the traditions that most churches, Protestant, Roman Catholic and Orthodox are carrying out today, prayer, bible study, work, holiness, love for each other, expectancy. Are there any others?

[Frank Sheed]

Sigh........

Patrick Madrid on "Sola Scriptura" (abstracted)

"Sola scriptura becomes "canon" fodder as soon as the Catholic asks the Protestant to explain how the books of the Bible got into the Bible. Under the sola scriptura rubric, Scripture exists in an absolute epistemological vacuum, since it and the veracity of its contents "dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church." If that's true, how then can anyone know with certitude what belongs in Scripture in the first place? The answer is, you can't. Without recognizing the trustworthiness of the Magisterium, endowed with Christ's own teaching authority (c.f., Matt. 16:18-19, 18:18; Luke 10:16} guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:25-26; 16:13), and the living apostolic Tradition of the Church (1 Cor. 11:1; 2 Thess. 2:15; 2 Timothy 2:2), there is no way to know for certain which books belong in Scripture and which do not. As soon as Protestants begin to appeal to the canons drawn up by this or that Father, or this or that council, they immediately concede defeat, since they are forced to appeal to the very "testimony of man and Church" that they claim to not need."

and following:

"Acts 17:10-11: "Upon arrival they went to the synagogue of the Jews. These Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the Scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so."

This passage is appealed to as evidence that it is more "noble" to go by whet Scripture says, than by whet even apostles themselves preach orally. But this is not so.

First, remember that these Jews were called noble mainly because they did not riot upon hearing Paul's claims for Christ's divinity, as did the Jews of Thessalonica (cf., Acts 17:1 -8). The Berean Jews were docile and willing to check to see if Paul's claims squared with Scripture. After all, he was preaching the Gospel to the Jews, and urging them to check these things out for themselves in what had by then become the "Old" Testament (cf. 17:2-3). Using Scripture was certainly appropriate when dealing with Jews, who revered and believed in Scripture, though it was futile to use when preaching to Gentiles, who had no appreciation for Scripture. That's why we don't see Paul or the other apostles typically using Scripture in their apostolic work among the Gentiles, and sometimes we see an appeal to pagan writings to make his point, when necessary! (cf. Acts 17:22-32).

Besides, the apostles were charged with teaching the Gospel to all creatures (Matt. 28:19-20), and this magisterial office included the task of interpreting Scripture. When the apostles taught, whether in writing or orally, God was teaching through them (Luke 10:16; 1 Thess. 2:13)."

[nanetteclaret]

Why don't you read "The Faith of the Early Fathers" by William Jurgens? You will find out what the traditions were and how the early church worshipped in the first 300 years. There is quite a lot of writing from that time period. Off hand I would suggest the writings of Ignatius, who was martyred in Rome +/- 100 AD and Justin Martyr, who was martyred +/- 150 AD. You can read what they say about the Early Church. Their writings are included in the "Faith of the Early Fathers" book.

[nanetteclaret]

Here is another link which has a lot of art information:

http://www.huntfor.com/arthistory/medieval/earlychristian.htm

[kawaii]

Why would he say the traditions I've taught you by word if they were present in the epistle he was writing?

Archaology has confirmed that the earliest Christian churches practiced as the Orthodox still do, they had the Eucharist, they had elaborate decorations, they venerated icons and lit candles.

[SaltyJoe]

Ever hear of those "two soldiers hate each other so the sergeant sticks both soldiers in the same fighting hole until they get along"?

The counter-Blessed Virgin arguments that I get has no substance beyond, "you're wrong and you and She are stupid/evil damnation/ridiculous, etc.".

Not that I'm ever in a position to judge, but I'll bet money that there's a special place in Purgatory for all those who deny the intercession due to the Blessed Mother. Likewise, I'm sure there's something for me in my faults that I must say, "oops, I was wrong and I'm sorry" before Jesus will accept me into His company.

Catholics never put the Blessed Virgin before Jesus. The pillar of the Holy Eucharist stands much taller than the Blessed Virgin. But woe to the souls that ignore Her and worse for those who insult Jesus' Mom. It's one thing to remain indifferent and at least silent with no more negative output than just doubtful questions. It's vicious, though, to attack the genuine love for the first among Saints.

The argument is between you, Jesus, and His Mom.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Jesus chose them and there was no turning back. He acknowledged that one WOULD BE LOST

If the Lamb was slain before the world began, so, too, did God ordain the exact manner of His death and thus the means of our rebirth. Life is not improvised. It's been ordained by God every step of the way.

Isn't this a lovely excerpt from the Puritan preacher, Stephen Charnock?

WHY SALVATION MUST BE SUPERNATURAL

(An extract from The Chief of Sinners Saved)

"The insufficiency of nature to such a work as conversion is, shows that men may not fall down and idolize their own wit and power. A change from acts of sin to moral duties may be done by a natural strength and the power of natural conscience: for the very same motives which led to sin, as education, interest, profit, may, upon a change of circumstances, guide men to an outward morality; but a change to the contrary grace is supernatural.

Two things are certain in nature. (1.) Natural inclinations never change, but by some superior virtue. A loadstone will not cease to draw iron, while that attractive quality remains in it. The wolf can never love the lamb, nor the lamb the wolf; nothing but must act suitably to its nature. Water cannot but moisten, fire cannot but burn. So likewise the corrupt nature of man being possessed with an invincible contrariety and enmity to God, will never suffer him to comply with God. And the inclinations of a sinner to sin being more strengthened by the frequency of sinful acts, have as great a power over him, and as natural to him, as any qualities are to natural agents: and being stronger than any sympathies in the world, cannot by a man's own power, or the power of any other nature equal to it, be turned into a contrary channel.

(2.) Nothing can act beyond its own principle and nature. Nothing in the world can raise itself to a higher rank of being than that which nature has placed it in; a spark cannot make itself a star, though it mount a little up to heaven; nor a plant endue itself with sense, nor a beast adorn itself with reason; nor a man make himself an angel. Thorns cannot bring forth grapes, nor thistles produce figs because such fruits are above the nature of those plants. So neither can our corrupt nature bring forth grace, which is a fruit above it. Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]: grace is more excellent than nature, therefore cannot be the fruit of nature. It is Christ's conclusion, "How can you, being evil, speak good things?" Matt. 12:33, 34. Not so much as the buds and blossoms of words, much less the fruit of actions. They can no more change their natures, than a viper can do away with his poison. Now though this I have said be true, yet there is nothing man does more affect in the world than a self-sufficiency, and an independence from any other power but his own. This attitude is as much riveted in his nature, as any other false principle whatsoever. For man does derive it from his first parents, as the prime legacy bequeathed to his nature: for it was the first thing uncovered in man at his fall; he would be as God, independent from him. Now God, to cross this principle, allows his elect, like Lazarus, to lie in the grave till they stink, that there may be no excuse to ascribe their resurrection to their own power. If a putrefied rotten carcass should be brought to life, it could never be thought that it inspired itself with that active principle. God lets men run on so far in sin, that they do unman themselves, that he may proclaim to all the world, that we are unable to do anything of ourselves towards our recovery, without a superior principle. The evidence of which will appear if we consider,

1. Man's subjection under sin. He is "sold under sin," Rom. 7:14, and brought "into captivity to the law of sin," ver. 23. "Law of sin:" that sin seems to have a legal authority over him; and man is not only a slave to one sin, but many, Tit. 3:3, "serving divers lusts." Now when a man is sold under the power of a thousand lusts, every one of which has an absolute tyranny over him, and rules him as a sovereign by a law; when a man is thus bound by a thousand laws, a thousand cords and fetters, and carried whither his lords please, against the dictates of his own conscience and force of natural light; can any man imagine that his own power can rescue him from the strength of these masters that claim such a right to him, and keep such a force upon him, and have so often baffled his own strength, when he attempted to turn against them?

2. Man's affection to them. He does not only serve them, but he serves them, and every one of them, with delight and pleasure; Tit. 3:3. They were all pleasures, as well as lusts; friends as well as lords. Will any man leave his sensual delights and such sins that please and flatter his flesh? Will a man ever endeavour to run away from those lords which he serves with affection? having as much delight in being bound a slave to these lusts, as the devil has in binding him. Therefore when you see a man cast away his pleasures, deprive himself of those comfortable things to which his soul was once knit, and walk in paths contrary to corrupt nature, you may search for the cause anywhere, rather than in nature itself. No piece of dirty, muddy clay can form itself into a neat and handsome vessel; no plain piece of timber can fit itself for the building, much less a crooked one. Nor a man that is born blind, give himself sight.

God deals with men in this case as he did with Abraham. He would not give Isaac while Sarah's womb, in a natural probability, might have borne him; but when her womb was dead, and age had taken away all natural strength of conception, then God gives him; that it might appear that he was not a child of nature, but a child of promise.

[xzins]

Jesus knew before it happened.

Are you suggesting that the devil is more powerful than our Lord?

[xzins]

You are talking about Ignatius and Justin and others. They lived AFTER the Apostle Paul.

In Thess, Paul tells them to:

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Notice that the underlined section is action that was completed in the Past.

These are traditions that existed PRIOR to Paul's death, so certainly they were not tradition brought about by people who lived AFTER his life was over.

What are they? Where are they listed?

[Nihil Obstat]

>What are they? Where are they listed?<

the Didache is probably the best example

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

[trisham]

Are you suggesting that the devil is more powerful than our Lord?

************

No, I was asking if you were suggesting he was.

[xzins]

The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

Perfect verse, DrE.

It demonstrates that this plan was set in motion PRIOR to creation.

Judas would betray Jesus. There is no other way that it ever would have been.

As in the Garden, the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent; and the serpent would strike the heel of the seed of woman.

God is in control.

[opus86]

Ah - roast, squished taters & gravy, and a nap...My favorite combination for a Lord's Day afternoon. /offtopic

[Nihil Obstat]

It was on Christ the King Sunday, 2005.

Congratulations!