Three Reasons the Church’s Enemies Hate The Immaculate Conception

TFP ^ | 12.08.06 | Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

[Iscool]

I see....so Jesus was born of a stained vessle?

It's like you guys don't understand why Jesus (God) became flesh...

[adiaireton8]

Two causes operate overdeterministically when either would bring about the effect, but only one or the other is sufficient to bring about the effect.

-A8

[Iscool]

Until Protestants can learn to contemplate Scriptures in a more fuller sense, trying to understand what God has said to us (the Bible is not only a historical book), they won't understand the doctrines of Mary, which are merely recognition of Mary's special place in salvation history that reflects on Christology and Ecclesiology.

Uh, you mean the bible doesn't say what we want it to say so we'll add and remove a bunch of stuff until we're happy with the results...

And we'll call it 'contemplating scripture in a fuller sense'...

Snake oil is still snake oil regardless of the packaging...

[Pyro7480]

Ah, that now "old" argument that you keep on trotting out.

[P-Marlowe]

I assume then that you are in agreement with nanette that you can veto God's choice? So if God chooses you, you can veto that choice?

Have either of you two ever read the story of Jonah?

Do either of you two believe that the story is literally and factually true?

[1000 silverlings]

see....so Jesus was born of a stained vessle?

Jesus' family line contains more than one stained vessel. That's what makes Him human.

[adiaireton8]

I assume then that you are in agreement with nanette that you can veto God's choice? So if God chooses you, you can veto that choice?

You're still thinking of God's choice and our choice in an overdeterministic manner, as if the two choices compete with each other. God does not make our choice for us, otherwise *we* would have *no* choice. God's eternal plan takes into account our choices. And so we cannot veto God's eternal plan, since our veto is included in that eternal plan. But we can reject God's offer of grace, and in that sense 'veto' God's choice.

As for Jonah, yes I've read it, and yes I believe it to be literally and factually true.

-A8

[Mad Dawg]

Jesus' family line contains more than one stained vessel. That's what makes Him human.It sounds like you are suggesting that it is sin which makes us human. Wouldn't that be a problem?

[P-Marlowe]

As for Jonah, yes I've read it, and yes I believe it to be literally and factually true.

God chose Jonah for a task which he refused to do. What happened to Jonah when Jonah tried to veto God's choice of him as a prophet to the Ninevites? Did God honor his free will choice?

BTW most Catholics that I have discussed this with on these threads seem to believe that the Jonah story was a fable or a parable.

Do you believe that God made the heavens and the earth and all that in them is in six days?

[Mad Dawg]

This article makes me uneasy. If we get done with all the us v. them stuff, I'd like to hear some opinions about it.

[P-Marlowe]

But we can reject God's offer of grace, and in that sense 'veto' God's choice.

If you reject God offer of grace, then you were never chosen.

You don't veto God's choice at that point, you ratify it!

[Mad Dawg]

Okay, I have a question. My recollection, an increasingly unreliable thing, is that if you call a thread "Caucus" then people ought not to come in and tangle. Did I just make that up out of my head or is that a real rule?<p..And if it isn't it should be, and if it IS, then we ought to use it more often. Sometimes it's probably good to sharpen our claws in each other on the big ol' questions, but a lot of the time we don't get to look into nuance because we're all busy with somebody who says that the people who disagree with him may be perfectly nice people but WOW are they wrong!

[LiteKeeper]

How about the fact that there is no Scirptural basis, and in fact, there is evidence to the contrary?

[Frank Sheed]

[P-Marlowe]

[Frank Sheed]

Nonetheless, it is a "humorous" non sequitur despite any contentions to the contrary!

[P-Marlowe]

Indeed, it was cute. I may even edit it "a bit" and use it later.

[Frank Sheed]

Two can Photoshop that game, Pilgrim!

;-o)

[P-Marlowe]

[nanetteclaret]

God chooses all of us or we would not have been created. We are the product of His love. He has given us free will so that we can choose to reject Him. He does not want us to love Him because we fear Him, but because He is Love itself. But He does say, "Not everyone who saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 Salvation is determined by us doing the will of the Father. We have a choice to do it or not.

Predestination is not Scriptural.

And I do believe the story of Jonah is literal. All Scripture is inspired by God and says exactly what He wants it to say.