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To: stfassisi

This writer is not well informed so take it with a grain of salt. Only God has immortality!

According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

Do souls die?


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3.


3 posted on 12/09/2006 8:35:31 AM PST by tessalu
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To: tessalu

You,re not making any sense.
Re read the article again.
FYI,the thread I posted is for Catholics, if have not noticed


5 posted on 12/09/2006 9:37:17 AM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: tessalu

The expression for death in Scipture is probably better translated as a 'state of existence involving separation'. 20th century secular philosophers have attempted to replace the existence of the soul with an existential materialism, positing the soul is merely a process of materialism. That is not the meaning of the soul or spirit in Scripture.

Additionally, the word 'soul' is frequently used in the Old Testament translations in a fashion which merges soul and spirit, whereas the New Testament tends to discern between soul and spirit.

When we say the soul is dead, it might be better understood that the soul is separate from an object which has life or is associated with life. For example, when we sin, we disobey God, by His immutable nature, He remains righteous, but in our sin we have separated ourselves from Him, i.e. dead to Him.

There may also be the separation of soul and spirit upon the second death. Our first death is generally associated with the separation of soul and/or spirit from the body.

The descriptor in Job 4:17 is of 'mortal man', identifying our present state of body soul and spirit which will undergo the first death or separation of the soul from the body. The body may also die or collapse falling into its constituent dust.

1Tim 6:15,16 testifies to the immortality and uniqueness of that immortality attributed in His essence, or His deathlessness.

Some express these observations by stating the soul of the believer has eternal life. This is because believers who die before the resurrection are always associated with a body throughout that eternal life. The first body is corruptible and will return to the dust, while we have an interim body immediately upon death but prior to the resurrection, at which time we receive our thirs body or resurrection body. The eternal life of the believer was given him by God at salvation by the regeneration of the spirit.

With this stated, you are correct in that the soul experiences a death or state of existence involving separation when leaving the mortal body for heaven.


8 posted on 12/09/2006 6:27:09 PM PST by Cvengr (Good Night, Mrs. McGillicutty, wherever you are....)
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To: tessalu
This writer is not well informed so take it with a grain of salt. Only God has immortality!

Only God is eternal, since he is uncreated. Angels are simple created spiritual substances, meaning that they have no parts. A being with no parts cannot be divided, and hence, destroyed. Once created, a simple substance will endure forever. Now, it is within God's power to annihilate or bring to nothing that which he has created from nothing, but since that which he has created is good in its very being, it seems that the annihilation of angels (even demons) would be contrary to God's justice. Regardless, we know from divine revelation that the angels will endure forever, in either eternal glory or punishment.

The human person, in contrast to the angels, is a compound substance of body and soul or matter and form. A compound substance can be divided or decomposed. The decomposition of body and soul represents death. But while the body proceeds to divide into smaller parts after death, the soul endures, since, considered absolutely, the soul is a simple (spiritual) substance.

Article 5. Whether the angels are incorruptible?

Objection 1. It would seem that the angels are not incorruptible; for Damascene, speaking of the angel, says (De Fide Orth. ii, 3) that he is "an intellectual substance, partaking of immortality by favor, and not by nature."

Objection 2. Further, Plato says in the Timaeus: "O gods of gods, whose maker and father am I: You are indeed my works, dissoluble by nature, yet indissoluble because I so will it." But gods such as these can only be understood to be the angels. Therefore the angels are corruptible by their nature

Objection 3. Further, according to Gregory (Moral. xvi), "all things would tend towards nothing, unless the hand of the Almighty preserved them." But what can be brought to nothing is corruptible. Therefore, since the angels were made by God, it would appear that they are corruptible of their own nature.

On the contrary, Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv) that the intellectual substances "have unfailing life, being free from all corruption, death, matter, and generation."

I answer that, It must necessarily be maintained that the angels are incorruptible of their own nature. The reason for this is, that nothing is corrupted except by its form being separated from the matter. Hence, since an angel is a subsisting form, as is clear from what was said above (2), it is impossible for its substance to be corruptible. For what belongs to anything considered in itself can never be separated from it; but what belongs to a thing, considered in relation to something else, can be separated, when that something else is taken away, in view of which it belonged to it. Roundness can never be taken from the circle, because it belongs to it of itself; but a bronze circle can lose roundness, if the bronze be deprived of its circular shape. Now to be belongs to a form considered in itself; for everything is an actual being according to its form: whereas matter is an actual being by the form. Consequently a subject composed of matter and form ceases to be actually when the form is separated from the matter. But if the form subsists in its own being, as happens in the angels, as was said above (2), it cannot lose its being. Therefore, the angel's immateriality is the cause why it is incorruptible by its own nature.

A token of this incorruptibility can be gathered from its intellectual operation; for since everything acts according as it is actual, the operation of a thing indicates its mode of being. Now the species and nature of the operation is understood from the object. But an intelligible object, being above time, is everlasting. Hence every intellectual substance is incorruptible of its own nature.

Reply to Objection 1. Damascene is dealing with perfect immortality, which includes complete immutability; since "every change is a kind of death," as Augustine says (Contra Maxim. iii). The angels obtain perfect immutability only by favor, as will appear later (62).

Reply to Objection 2. By the expression 'gods' Plato understands the heavenly bodies, which he supposed to be made up of elements, and therefore dissoluble of their own nature; yet they are for ever preserved in existence by the Divine will.

Reply to Objection 3. As was observed above (44, 1) there is a kind of necessary thing which has a cause of its necessity. Hence it is not repugnant to a necessary or incorruptible being to depend for its existence on another as its cause. Therefore, when it is said that all things, even the angels, would lapse into nothing, unless preserved by God, it is not to be gathered therefrom that there is any principle of corruption in the angels; but that the nature of the angels is dependent upon God as its cause. For a thing is said to be corruptible not merely because God can reduce it to non-existence, by withdrawing His act of preservation; but also because it has some principle of corruption within itself, or some contrariety, or at least the potentiality of matter.


26 posted on 12/11/2006 7:47:54 AM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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