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To: wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan
Kosta: here is our most fundamental difference. We believe that God's grace is given us freely and not from anything we can, or could, do. If I understand your sect correctly your belief is much more along the lines of Judaism, in that you believe you are found righteous before God based on the lifetime of your works

"you are found righteous before God based on the lifetime of your works" in faith

First among the "works" of righteousness is a life of repentance and prayer, in humility; in loving your God and loving your enemies.

Life-long 'works' of faith are an expression of, and not the cause of our righteousness. Life in faith leads us to spiritual maturity and not triumphalism. The 'works' of faith involve incessant gratitude and deep conviction that no matter what we 'get' at the end will be merciful and just (regardless what we may think of it).

It's not the Spirit but God's energies that work in us. His blessings are like any asset — you can squander them or you can turn them into more blessings in God's name. The Spirit guides us and ever-so-gently returns us to proper ways after we stray, patiently and lovingly.

You are made righteous at Baptism, as your sins are wiped clean. You are made righteous after Confession and Communion until we fall again in sin. You are made righteous in repentance and prayer. The more you 'do' these works the less you will sin.

The more you fit the Beatitudes, mercy, purity in heart, etc. the more you will be just in God's eyes, even if you consider yourself the worst sinner of all.

Yes, we believe that God made it possible for us to be saved. We do not believe that God pays all the bills. That's just too convenient and easy and leads to nothing but triumphalistic self-righteousness and arrogance.

We are all prodigal sons. For us to be made righteous, God expects us to 'do' more than just believe.

9,954 posted on 02/10/2007 8:49:04 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan
I always appreciate your direct answers. They do seem contradictory at times.

First you say:

"you are found righteous before God based on the lifetime of your works" in faith

Then you say:

Life-long 'works' of faith are an expression of, and not the cause of our righteousness.

Also,you say:

It's not the Spirit but God's energies that work in us.

I noted you did reference the Holy Spirit guiding us, but is it your belief that the Holy Spirit does not indwell the elect, rather God the Father's uncreated energies?

9,957 posted on 02/10/2007 9:21:27 AM PST by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: kosta50; wmfights; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan
For us to be made righteous, God expects us to 'do' more than just believe.

As Wmfights noted, this is where we part company.

Men are "made righteous" by only ONE THING -- by the perfect, predestined, merciful and miraculous death and resurrection of Jesus Christ who paid in full one time for all the sins of God's elect.

" [we]"...are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood... He did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." -- Romans 3:25,26

And how do we know that Christ paid for our sins? By our faith. If we believe, we have been redeemed. And that is because the only way a fallen creature can have faith and do good works is by the free gift of God's grace alone.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10

If our fruit is good, we have been born from a good tree.

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." -- Matthew 7:17-18

And who makes one man fruitful and another man not?

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7

Saved by grace alone.

9,963 posted on 02/10/2007 10:05:27 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: kosta50; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings

"For us to be made righteous, God expects us to 'do' more than just believe."

Righteous is a forensic term. You have defined grace as God's justice, another forensic term. It is God's mercy in Christ that His justice is satisfied and we are judged righteous before Him. You don't work to be innocent of a crime, either you are or you are not. You don't work to be righteous, either you are or you are not.

Tts 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


9,967 posted on 02/10/2007 10:15:37 AM PST by blue-duncan
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