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To: Kolokotronis

Augustine's opinion is not dogma. That was the work of a Latin synod(The Council of Carthage, which dealt with the issue of grace in a slightly different manner. To be sure, Augustine's view largely prevailed, until the time of Aquinas, but thereafter the semi-Pelagian view--which is closer to the Eastern view, and whose prime champion earlier was St. John Cassian--was the doctrine that Luther and Calvin encountered and rejected. As for the Immaculate Conception, it only stresses the superabundance of the graces given to Mary. If we think of Mary as the second eve, then what we have is a person whose will is not overpowered so that she cannot sin , but who chooses, despite the temptations of the world, to remain true. East and West the Church has always taught how the flesh has been corrupted through the sin of Adam. That grace given to Mary at her origin has removed that corruption and so strengthened she is able to do the will of God. Thus wehn the angel comes to her she is able to give her consent totally, the accept this mission with all its dangers and suffering, as pray God, we must be able to "now and at the hour of our death." How do we say, "Yes," to Jesus? Ask Mary. She is the first Christian.


977 posted on 12/09/2006 11:02:03 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHI)
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To: RobbyS

"Augustine's opinion is not dogma. That was the work of a Latin synod(The Council of Carthage, which dealt with the issue of grace in a slightly different manner."

I know, but its influence on the Western Church approaches that of dogma, as I said earlier.

"To be sure, Augustine's view largely prevailed, until the time of Aquinas, but thereafter the semi-Pelagian view--which is closer to the Eastern view, and whose prime champion earlier was St. John Cassian--was the doctrine that Luther and Calvin encountered and rejected."

Yup, though its interesting to note that +Thomas Aquinas rejected the idea of the Immaculate Conception. And certainly +John Cassian's views were rather like what was called Semi-Pelagianism, but all +John did was reiterate what the Eastern Fathers had always said about grace and man's response to that grace. Pelagianism, of whatever stripe, was never much of a problem in the East because it never gained a foothold there, unlike most other ancient heresies.

"As for the Immaculate Conception, it only stresses the superabundance of the graces given to Mary. If we think of Mary as the second eve, then what we have is a person whose will is not overpowered so that she cannot sin , but who chooses, despite the temptations of the world, to remain true."

Well, here's a problem. The eastern Church never taught that one individual received a "superabundance" of grace, more grace than the person next to her. On the contrary, Father after Father taught the contrary, that there is no divine discrimination at all and God's grace falls on all equally. Its our response to or cooperation with that grace which makes the difference. Your formulation of the IM dogma points to the "semi-monergist" theology of the Latin Church, doubtless a reaction to Pelagianism and maybe Manicheanism, contrasted with the synergism of the Eastern Church. The Latin Church does indeed refer to the Theotokos as the Second Eve, as does the East. It is an ancient Cappodocian/Syrian type and an excellent one in my opinion, a concept which adds greatly to our understanding of the Incarnation within God's plan for the theosis of all creation. It is also a major source of the "Co-Redemptrix" idea, though most people who use that term use it wrong and understand it in a heretical way. As another Freeper commented on this thread, its a term which causes more trouble than good. In the East, however, when the Cappodocians came up with the Second Eve type and to this day, a superabundance of grace being provided to Panagia simply isn't part of the idea.

"That grace given to Mary at her origin has removed that corruption and so strengthened she is able to do the will of God."

But Robby, the OT is filled with righteous people who did the will of God without a superabundance of grace. What they couldn't do, and what Panagia on her own couldn't do, was become like God. Creation needed Christ for that. "God became man so that men might become "gods"." as +Athanasius the Great taught. Until the Incarnation, all mankind, including Panagia were in bondage to Death. But when Christ descended to the place of the dead, he shattered the fetters of Death, restoring life to those in the tombs. Thus, the result of Panagia's response to God's grace was life, not just for her but potentially for all of us. The First Eve had the same potentiality before the Fall, when she was not subject to the results of sin, but failed. The Second Eve didn't fail and because of her Son, she attained eternal life.

"How do we say, "Yes," to Jesus? Ask Mary. She is the first Christian."

Agreed 1000%! :)


982 posted on 12/10/2006 5:01:25 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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