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To: annalex; Kolokotronis

Gee, Annalex. You were only making benevolent comments towards me :) I don't know what part of " I think Blogger's reading is to Greek what Japanese appliance instructions are to English." Following that comment you said "and "I merely was making a reference you how you want to read it. I, in fact, can see why, and so does Kolokotronis." I took that to mean that you could see why I, being a protestant, would want to read it that way but Kolo and I know better... If I mistook your agreement with at least the POSSIBILITY that God is the pillar and not the church (grammatically that is), I apologize for a moment of paranoia - but just because I was paranoid doesn't mean you aren't out to get me :)

The phrase we are dealing with is the which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

It seems to me the most literal interpretation of the verse is : "But, if I tarry long, in order that you may understand how you should in the house of God to turn yourself about (Metaphorically behave yourself)which is the church of God the living one the pillar and the ground of the truth." As such, I don't see it very far fetched to compare this phrase with a phrase like "The church of the Jesus Christ, the Alpha and Omega" In a sentence like this, it is clear that the Alpha and Omega is Christ because we know that those are titles of His. But the structure is similar to the church of the living God the pillar and ground of truth. We don't know pillar and ground of truth as titles of God, but it could, it seems, apply to God - who DOES refer to himself in Scripture by architectural titles. Witness these:

Acts 4:
10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


# 2 Samuel 22:3
The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

#
# Psalm 31:3
For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.

#
# 1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Psalm 61:3
For thou hast been a shelter for me, and a strong tower from the enemy

# John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Exodus 33:9And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses. 10And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

So, You can see God referenced as architectural elements with regularity. I'm not saying that this is how this particular verse HAS to be interpreted. But it is an interesting thing to consider. For Protestantism it doesn't have huge ramifications because we believe it already. For Catholicism and Orthodoxy, it has more implications. Devastating implications? I wouldn't go that far, but something to consider when looking at the Church and its representation of God and His Word.

And, with the objection being made that God can not be a part of something he is as a whole (i.e., being the pillar and ground of truth and the truth at the same time), we see other examples in Scripture such as Jesus is the Life and the Lord of Life so that too isn't wholly out of the ordinary.

Just something to consider...

Incidentally, I did write one of the best Greek scholars at seminary for his input. We'll see what he has to say about it.


9,716 posted on 02/07/2007 7:08:26 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger; Kolokotronis
I made two posts in succession, one more critical of your reading than the other. Yes, I now (9402)see it as a grammatical possibility, based on the observation that "zondos" is in the same inflection as "stylos" but "zontos" is very unlikely to apply to the Church, as it is a common attribute of God. I still think that the absence of "tou" in front of the "stylos kai edraioma" makes these two modifying the closest noun, "ekklesia".

Yes, there are references to God as rock, and certainly to Christ as a variety of architectural objects, including Christ as foundation of our faith, but here we have two candidates, Church and God, and of the two it is the Church that more readily invites the architectural metaphore.

No, of course the other reading does nothing to Catholic eccleseology either.

9,758 posted on 02/08/2007 11:21:33 AM PST by annalex
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