Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. Christ did not call +John the Baptist a liar. Nor did anyone call it a ritual.
We believe that sacraments are accomplished by the Holy Spirit. They are not rituals.
To a Muslim or a Jew, the New Testament is "just a book." To you it's a word of God. To us a sacrament is grace; to you ti is an empty ritual.
Don't try to be 'logical' when it comes to blind faith, FK. Any faith is a presumption.
Southern Baptists and Reformers believe that it was Christ's blood that washed away our sins, not a ritual with water
Yeah, I know, cozy and easy. All your sins, past, present and the future ones are paid for. Don't worry, be happy; and sin as much as you want. It's all "covered."
Lev 17:11 : 11
I thought the law was not salvific.
Heb 9:22 : 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission
We need to make up our minds here, if you know what I mean...it is the law or not?
Yes, the Law required rituals, but are we saved by rituals now? Do you think that the OT Jews were actually saved through rituals?
The OT Jews did not feel a need to be saved. Judaism does not believe man needs to be saved. The messianic era of Judaism a century or so before Christ was not seeking to 'save' individuals but to restore the Kingdom of Israel.
But the Jews believe that if you live a decent life (accoridng to the Law), do charity, etc. you will be acceptable to God. Those who do whatwe know are immoral things won't. The Jews don't go further than that, sort of trusting that whatever happens will be God's decision and it will be good.
If Moses says that burnt offerings atone for your sins, and +Paul says that faith makes you just before God, why should I believe +Paul any more than Moses? I have no proof that either is telling the truth. Neither do you.
I have probably been told this before, so please forgive me that I cannot remember the Orthodox answer. Given that: (1) the Orthodox do not believe in original sin, (2) you practice infant baptism, (3) babies have not committed any sin, and (4) you do not believe that baptism covers future sins, how is baptism the forgiveness of sins in Orthodoxy?
We believe that sacraments are accomplished by the Holy Spirit. They are not rituals.
But you use your free will to perform them. I can't possibly mean "ritual" in a pejorative sense, since we practice baptism (and the Lord's Supper) also. What does "ritual" mean to you?
To a Muslim or a Jew, the New Testament is "just a book." To you it's a word of God. To us a sacrament is grace; to you it is an empty ritual.
Rituals don't imply emptiness at all. We derive meaning from our rituals, albeit different from the meanings you take. I wouldn't call your rituals empty, my point was just that I don't think rituals are salvific, and I don't think the Bible teaches that they are. Faith is salvific. They are two different things. IOW, the Bible doesn't say we are saved by grace through ritual.
Don't try to be 'logical' when it comes to blind faith, FK. Any faith is a presumption.
Faith certainly involves being certain of what we do not see, but I do not think this means faith must be blind at all. While there are truths in Christianity that we accept without being able to fully explain, I think logic and reason can be found all over Christianity. When I read the red letters in my Bible I see a high order and consistency to it. Some things I did not see (understand) on a first reading, but then further logical explanation based on other scripture brought it back into focus. I really think the Bible was written so that we may understand to the fullest extent of God's intentions. Perhaps Reformers believe those intentions were comparatively higher.
[On Lev. 17:11] I thought the law was not salvific.
It isn't and it wasn't. Those laws were ceremonial, they literally saved no one, and the coming of Christ proved it. Only the blood of Christ was salvific. The OT righteous did not have the blood of Christ yet, in time, so the best they could do was "imitate" it with ceremony. After Christ, there was no more need for animal sacrifice. No one was ever saved because he followed the law.
FK: "Yes, the Law required rituals, but are we saved by rituals now? Do you think that the OT Jews were actually saved through rituals?"
The OT Jews did not feel a need to be saved. Judaism does not believe man needs to be saved. The messianic era of Judaism a century or so before Christ was not seeking to 'save' individuals but to restore the Kingdom of Israel.
Well actually, my question was irrespective of what many Jews thought, I was referring to how it worked in truth.
But even in the way you took it, I don't think I can agree. A Savior is clearly prophesied, even if many wrongly interpreted what that meant. I believe the OT righteous knew it correctly. In addition, the OT Jews certainly believed in a need for atonement. What were they afraid of if they did not atone? Even among those who had it wrong, can't it be said that they felt a need for "salvation" through atonement?
If Moses says that burnt offerings atone for your sins, and +Paul says that faith makes you just before God, why should I believe +Paul any more than Moses?
The Bible says that both are telling the truth as revealed to them by God. Burnt offerings, and the like, were symbolic of what was to come. It was a preview of the real thing. Christ's revelation through Paul was a fulfillment.