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To: D-fendr; Mad Dawg
Would it be accurate to say that the difference in your view is not the works but what one believes about salvation in regards to them?

Yes, I think so. We believe that works are a must in the life of a Christian that are "God-guaranteed". We would say that in every single case of a true (already saved) believer, that works are a fruit of that belief.

And further that nothing one does before salvation can affect his/her salvation; And, hypothetically, nothing one does afterward can affect his/her salvation.

This is trickier and a bit more technical. :) From God's POV, the elect are chosen by name before creation, and nothing within time can change that, before or after salvation (within time). From man's POV, the elect spend the first part of their lives being "lost" and on a road to hell. Then God touches the elect and they accept Christ and are "saved". So technically, the action of accepting Christ is something that is done and makes a difference. (From God's POV all this is a foregone conclusion.)

In addition, and hypothetically, if one claiming to be "saved" did no works after salvation, then he would not be fit for Heaven. So, hypothetically, the doing of works DOES affect salvation. We just don't emphasize this so much because we think that works are already (future) included with the "package" called salvation.

9,030 posted on 02/06/2007 3:40:28 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Okay. I think we can agree that good works are "Diagnostic". I would agree with Kierkegaard among others that works are largely internal -- or the part that "counts" is. And that means that actually on the ground, we may not always know if a work is "good".

I know some very mentally ill people. Sometimes I see what I think must be an effort at real love and charity on their part. Usually it's a manipulative destructive controlling disaster! But I think they were giving it their best shot.

I mention this not only to trumpet my own remarkable virtue and perspicacity (famed in legend and song), but to make clear the possibility that I, even I, could be very wrong about what a good work in the real world, on the ground, etc. would be. But we can agree in theory.

Now, personally I would avoid using the word salvific because it seems to make trouble. But, you know, when I get up and haul the sorry carcass out of bed and, while the coffee drips, read the day's psalms and Scripture selections, over time it seems that good things happen, the first of which is that the next day I want to get up and do it again, and maybe this time make a little surer that I am slowing down, listening as I read, etc. In other words, there is often a sequence: a good work is followed by the urge to do another good work.

MY idiosyncratic take which I submit to my RCC brethren for inquisition is this:

First, the good work is only good by grace. My motivations are complicated and NEVER pure. My execution is ditto. The work is sort of formally good: it is good to "pray". Whatever good there is in my wanting to do it and the doing itself, is a gift.

A FURTHER gift, somehow consequent on the earlier gifts, is that I might want to do the same thing tomorrow, and that during the day I might find myself giving more time to prayer - waiting for the light to change, listening while my wife articulates some tricky concept, laughing at Rush.

All these little moments help me remember God's love. All these moments help me remember that God loves that piece of mobile pond scum who just darn near ran into me in his haste to beat the light.

Because of the sequential nature of these events , God calls me to pray, I pray, God calls me more frequently (or enables me to hear His call more frequently), AND because it stands to reason that the exercise of a good action will over time help it turn into a good habit, leads me to use language about "merit". This prayer was "rewarded" with that prayer.

But I will insist that it is at the bottom a kind of celebratory play on words. As if I gave my daughter money to buy me a Christmas present and "rewarded" her for doing so with a kiss and a raise in her allowance. And later on in her life, when she had walked in various paths or good works, I might reward her by paying for her to go to Outward Bound. The gift and reward would be 28 days of severe trials! But it's all GRACE, it's all GIFT. And for me, to forget that is the way to disaster.

Now, viewed (as IF) from the perspective of the Eternal, this was all foredoomed. But while I can imagine, very inadequately, that perspective, here on the ground there are phenomena to describe in the Christian life. And I have tried to show (pedantically, the mania hasn't kicked in yet) how I describe them, while bearing in mind that the description is provisional and inadequate, albeit conventional for RCs (I think.)

Gimme some feedback, please.

9,041 posted on 02/06/2007 5:47:32 AM PST by Mad Dawg ("global warming -- it's just the tip of the iceberg!")
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To: Forest Keeper
Thanks for your reply. A lot of it sounds almost... Catholic. :)

Quick question on this part:

From man's POV, the elect spend the first part of their lives being "lost" and on a road to hell. Then God touches the elect and they accept Christ and are "saved". So technically, the action of accepting Christ is something that is done and makes a difference.

Are you of the irresistable grace school? Or is there a choice possible at this point?

thanks very much for your reply.

9,311 posted on 02/06/2007 7:29:54 PM PST by D-fendr
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