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To: Mad Dawg

I wasn't yelling, though at time on this thread I have yelled as have you. So, we all know how to use our typographical lungs. Back to the subject at hand.

You know from prior conversations that our objection to Marian dogma is not that God did this or that with her but that Catholics have labeled her with the attributes that Scripture gives to God and many are eager to label her with more. We object to prayers to the saints in Heaven because Scripture forbids trying to contact the dead. (And yes, in the earthly sense, they are dead else the Old Testament command was nonsense).

Having studied the apparitions of Mary, I am also very disturbed with Marian adoration and the extent that MILLIONS of souls go through in their "venerating" activities.

Though my examples were deliberately pushing the line a bit, I was trying to get at how you all believe Mary hears ALL of those prayers if she indeed isn't omnipresent and omniscient. So far, I have received "She's with Jesus and he's those things..." and basically a "She can do it all by a miracle and you're blase about miracles if you doubt she can."

No, Mad Dawg. I am not blase about miracles. I believe true miracles happen every day. Life itself is a miracle. Healings are miracles. Miracles happen.

What I am doing is testing the spirits here. And what I see does not compute with Scripture.

The Bible says :1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Why would I want or need another mediator in prayer?


Easton's Bible Dictionary has this to say about Mediator:
one who intervenes between two persons who are at variance, with a view to reconcile them. This word is not found in the Old Testament; but the idea it expresses is found in Job 9:33, in the word "daysman" (q.v.), marg., "umpire." This word is used in the New Testament to denote simply an internuncius, an ambassador, one who acts as a medium of communication between two contracting parties. In this sense Moses is called a mediator in Gal. 3:19. Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). He makes reconciliation between God and man by his all-perfect atoning sacrifice. Such a mediator must be at once divine and human, divine, that his obedience and his sufferings might possess infinite worth, and that he might possess infinite wisdom and knowlege and power to direct all things in the kingdoms of providence and grace which are committed to his hands (Matt. 28:18; John 5:22, 25, 26, 27); and human, that in his work he might represent man, and be capable of rendering obedience to the law and satisfying the claims of justice (Heb. 2:17, 18; 4:15, 16), and that in his glorified humanity he might be the head of a glorified Church (Rom. 8:29). This office involves the three functions of prophet, priest, and king, all of which are discharged by Christ both in his estate of humiliation and exaltation. These functions are so inherent in the one office that the quality appertaining to each gives character to every mediatorial act. They are never separated in the exercise of the office of mediator.
Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

Mary does not fit the role nor is she given the title in Scripture.

So, does she intercede for us? Well, Scripture speaks of intercession:

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.



Hebrews 7:19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

So most of the instances of Intercession speak of Jesus or the Holy Spirit.


I could only find one instance where it refers to us in the NT (there could be more, but this is the one I found):
1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men

And once is enough. We should intercede on behalf of our fellow saints on earth. That is pleasing to God.

But, he never tells us to pray to the dead - ever. Rather, we have a direct line to God's throneroom and Christ Jesus Himself and the Sweet Holy Spirit intercede and mediate for us.

Futhermore, Christ is our advocate. He alone can point to the scars in his hands and say "penalty paid."

Mary was a wonderful woman. She bore our Savior. We love her. She was blessed among women. But that's it.

God indeed CAN do anything He wishes. I'm a Calvinist, remember. I believe He would have been well within His rights to send us all to Hell. He can do whatever He wants that is consistent with His nature (he can not lie). So, if He had chosen to use a human being in the capacity you speak of, as long as it was consistent with his nature He could have done it.

The testimony of Scripture is, however, that we have a direct connection to the Lord. We can approach him directly without fear. He is our Daddy. Our Abba Father. Rom 8:15 ;Gal 4:6 We do not need to pray to saints to pray to Jesus for us to get God's attention. We already have it. And HE is our intercessor, mediator, advocate, guide, Lord, God, friend. Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


9,020 posted on 02/05/2007 8:24:13 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!


9,031 posted on 02/06/2007 3:56:35 AM PST by Quix (WHEN IT COMES TO UFO'S TRY ABOVETOPSECRET.COM TO LEARN A LITTLE 1ST THEN POST)
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