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To: Mad Dawg
The Holy Trinity is YOUR secretary! No. He's my Boss.

The Holy Trinity is your nurse, and secretary. He who came to serve, served long before He came.
Mad Dawg, it sounds good, but it just isn't scriptural. Philippians 2:7 says "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" He gave out of love. He sustains out of His good pleasure. He was not a servant before His incarnation and He is not my Secretary now. The Holy Spirit hears me speak and if you want to say anything about it you could say He is my translator to God the Father at times when I can not speak myself. But not my secretary for a secretary is obligated by payment to perform certain functions. God is not obligated by anything in regards to us. Rather, He who owns the Cattle on the thousand hills is willfully benevolent towards us according to His good pleasure.

Back to Mary. I still do not understand how you all believe Mary is hearing and answering all of those prayers? Say you have a Marian Festival of some sort. Thousands upon thousands all pray the Rosary and speak her name all at one time making their petitions known. Is she omniscient that she can hear all of these? Is someone sorting them all out for her? If someone is praying in your hometown and another group is praying in Fatima, is she omnipresent so that she can hear all of those requests?
9,013 posted on 02/05/2007 6:49:07 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger
I'm not saying, when I say God is your secretary, that He is your inferior. I'm saying that you couldn't communicate at all or with anyone whatsoever without His sustaining the act at every level, physical and metaphysical and psychological, and in every other way that it needs support. I thought it was the Calvinists who were all about the Sovereignty of God, but now you seem to be in position of saying that communication can happen without God's help.

I understand you to say that it is remarkable that communications to Mary would be assisted by the Lord. I'm saying EVERY communication at all times is assisted by the Lord, and no communication would ever happen without him.

If that is not scriptural, then I am not scriptural. But you sound like a deist here - God wound up the communication mechanism and turned it loose? - and I know that's not true, that you're not a Deist.

So then you make the equivalence that if we say God enables communication with Mary then we are making God Mary's secretary.

And rather than dispute that, I run with it. (Would it be better if I said volunteer secretary, or if you had?)

I took the equivalence that you made So, you pray to Mary and Jesus is her secretary relaying the message to her?, that is,if God helps, He must be in a servant role, and ran it out. You added the element of compulsion to what we were saying. It seems to me that if you reject what I say then you have to reject the argument that we are making Jesus Mary's secretary.

Then you say, Pardon me if that conjures up images of Jesus looking to Mary "Hey, Mom. Mad Dawg is talking to you."

Would it be okay or at least pardonable if I characterized the Calvinist view as God as a puppet master controlling everything for his amusement, saving some puppets but throwing others into fire, like a spoiled emperor pulling the wings off of flies, or a Spartan killing a Helot just for the, uh, Helot of it? It wouldn't be okay with ME if I did that.

And again, you all think that God is in time and changeable. We don't. He serves. He has always served. That's what Sovereigns do. Tyrants dominate. That's why people hate tyrants and love their good kings. They don't serve out of compulsion, but out of wisdom and love.

As to the rest, we take seriously the saying:

Αγαπητοι, νυν τεκνα θεου εσμεν, και ουπω εφανερωθη τι εσομεθα. οιδαμεν οτι εαν φανερωυη ομοιοι αθτω εσομεθα, οτι οψομεθα καθωσ εστιν.
we shall be like Him (I John 3:2)
And, come to think of it, "..greater things than these ..."

We take the promises very seriously indeed, and rejoice in them.

9,054 posted on 02/06/2007 7:30:13 AM PST by Mad Dawg ("global warming -- it's just the tip of the iceberg!")
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