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To: annalex; Blogger; Gamecock; Mad Dawg; kawaii; Kolokotronis; kosta50; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
FK: "Is there a Biblical principle that says that one believer's prayers are greater than another's because of status or position?"

... But to the question of scripture, sure: "For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much" (James 5:16)

That doesn't distinguish at all among believers. The OVERWHELMING message in the Bible is that God hears the prayers of believers and does not hear them from unbelievers. If one prays in the will of God, he will receive, if he does not he will not.

Isa 59:2 : 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Prov 15:29 : 29 The LORD is far from the wicked but he hears the prayer of the righteous. [This goes hand in hand with your verse.]

1 John 5:14-15 : 14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us — whatever we ask — we know that we have what we asked of him.

There is nothing that says to turn over our prayer requests to Saints or to Mary because they have greater stature. My prayer stands or falls based on whether I am a believer and whether I am praying in God's will. Are you really saying that there are prayers that you have, but since you think God won't grant YOU a favorable answer you turn the prayer over to a Saint and then you will get a favorable answer? Does God really fall for this? :)

FK: "When I see the words "Holy Mary, save me!", the last thing in the world I think of is a prayer request. "

Yes, but you are not familiar with the Orthodox frame of reference. I put this plea in the context of the Incarnation and have no such confusion.

Well, a few days ago Kolo showed me one Orthodox frame of reference. It was a prayer that looked just like an intercession. "Pray for me". I don't know what you mean by putting the plea into the context of the Incarnation in terms of changing the appearance of the plain meaning.

FK: "Other than this has been advertised to me."

Really? The first thing one would say about the saints is that we give them honor. Intercession is secondary. They are the martyrs who gave you your religion, and paid with their lives. Literally. Think about it.

You said: "Also keep in mind that we do ask the saints for things other than prayer." (7889) It has been advertised to me that Catholics only look for intercession from saints, that people are not worshiping and looking for divine action on their parts. If anyone believes a saint can individually grant a supernatural request, such as salvation, then that is worship and not a request for prayer.

If we get right down to the nuts and bolts of it, let me just ask: when you pray to Mary: "Mary save us!", what exactly do you expect Mary to do for you? What actions are you asking Mary to take?

8,939 posted on 02/05/2007 10:20:20 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
There is nothing that says to turn over our prayer requests to Saints or to Mary because they have greater stature. My prayer stands or falls based on whether I am a believer and whether I am praying in God's will. Are you really saying that there are prayers that you have, but since you think God won't grant YOU a favorable answer you turn the prayer over to a Saint and then you will get a favorable answer? Does God really fall for this? :)

This has nothing to do with stature and everything to do with Holy Scripture telling us in Revelation that the prayers for the saints intercede for us in the final judgement.
8,941 posted on 02/05/2007 10:55:38 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Blogger; Gamecock; Mad Dawg; kawaii; Kolokotronis; kosta50; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
[James 5:16] doesn't distinguish at all among believers

Sure it does, -- it links the efficacy with righteousness of the petitioner. I do not disagree that God hears all sincere prayers.

Are you really saying that there are prayers that you have, but since you think God won't grant YOU a favorable answer you turn the prayer over to a Saint and then you will get a favorable answer?

What I am saying is that I choose to turn to a saint because of the nature of the prayer, and because it feels more natural to me. I cannot speculate if that can make a difference to the point of granting or not granting a request. Ask yourself the same question when you ask a friend to pray for you, -- do you think that if you pray yourself, it will not be granted, but with the friend praying it will be.

If we get right down to the nuts and bolts of it, let me just ask: when you pray to Mary: "Mary save us!", what exactly do you expect Mary to do for you? What actions are you asking Mary to take?

I expect Mary to pray for me to Christ, so that He is merciful to me should I falter.

8,974 posted on 02/05/2007 4:41:42 PM PST by annalex
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