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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; kawaii; blue-duncan; wmfights
The Apostles did not 'put together' the Christian canon; the Church did.

For sure, such is not the case with the Old Testament. The concept of a 'devil' does not exist in Judaism.

The Jews deny that an angel – albeit a noëtic being – can have free will and rebel against God.


8,918 posted on 02/05/2007 4:40:54 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; kawaii; blue-duncan; wmfights
Actually, the Church's position on this is that they did not 'put together' the Christian canon; instead they 'confirmed' the canon. A subtle but significant difference

Selecting and verifying only those scrolls that were deemed inspired based on the knowledge of the faith and then assembling a list of scrolls/books that are Christian canon (New Testament) is merely 'confirming?' You guys never cease to amaze me!

Kosta: The concept of a 'devil' does not exist in Judaism

HD: quotes Job 1:6-8 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them

HD: I wouldn't say it doesn't exist

It's not a matter of (dis)agreement, HD; it's a fact: the Jews did not/do not consider Satan a fallen angel but one of the "sons of God." Find me ONE Jewish reference that says otherwise.

The early Church recognized the inspiration of the Old Testament as well as the New. The rejection of the Old Testament is, in part, a heretical view know as Marcionism

Is this somehow related to the current topic?

I'm not that familiar with ancient Jewish teaching (it has changed) but if this is what they believe, I would agree

Ancient Jewish teaching never considered ha-satan (which is not even a proper name) anything but a servant of God. Sadducces rejected, among other things, all angels and they were as much Jewish as the Pharisees. The rabbinical Judaism of today comes from the latter. In either case, ha-satan was never a fallen angel.

Angels do not and never had free will, nor can they rebel against God

Angels do not and never had free will, nor can they rebel against God

You are then denying that Satan is the fallen angel who rebelled against God, which is an exclusive Christian teaching?

But clearly the Jews, at least in Job, understood there to be fallen angels

Where does it say that? Fallen how? Fallen on earth, like a bird falls on earth? LOL! According to Judaism, ha-satan's assigned place was earth to tempt humans. He is included among the 'sons of God' in the book of Job.

It's Christianity that's in a dire predicament to explain God conversing with His fallen angel, and not Judaism. Satan certainly is not portrayed as a fallen angel in that book, as he is not in any part of the Old Testament.

Please consult Jewish sources on what Judaism believes about Satan and how ha-satan became synonymous with the devil in the New Testament (hint: the so-called OT "Apocrypha").


8,925 posted on 02/05/2007 5:51:57 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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