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To: kosta50; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Blogger
Let me get this straight: God writes the script and says "Man must rebel against me. The only reason he shall rebel against me is that I say it must happen.

You say it like it's a bad thing. :) I take it that you believe in the alternative: God doesn't write a script and doesn't care one way or the other what men do with His creation. Whatever they decide to do, that is fine with Him. Man rebelling against God was an accident, it didn't have to go that way, but fate or fortune or luck determined it instead.

So, in truth, man did not have a choice, but was predestined to rebel.

God could have created Adam and Eve to be immune to sin. He did not. Therefore, that sin would happen was part of God's plan. That is, if God is in control of His creation. If man is in control of God's creation, then I suppose Adam choosing to sin was just a bad roll of the dice.

Then, if I am reading your theology correctly, man was trapped from the get-go to fall into the pit of sin created by God.

No, God did not create sin. However, it was part of God's plan that man would sin, and God always gets what He wants. Man cannot thwart God's plan.

I believe you are tripping over your own theology. In the first paragraph you said it had to be. You didn't say, God allowed it, so it was a tossup. ..... Which is it: did God predetermine everything, including our choices, or not? If God predetermined our choices, then He is the author of them and we are simply the vessels who must obey.

God does predetermine everything, which means God allowing something does not make it a tossup. It is a difference of God acting versus choosing not to act. That is the difference in authorship. When we do good, God acts and gets the credit. When we sin, God does nothing, and we are to blame. So, when I sin I am not "obeying" God. He does not "move" me to sin.

If you must obey, you have no choice. If you obey God's will, regardless what your choice is, and you must, how is that a sin?

Sin is acting against God. It is our nature to do so before salvation. After salvation we still choose to so act from time to time. You can't obey a command you're not aware of. God does not move people to sin, He leaves them alone. Men act in accordance with God's will, they are not "obeying" when they sin. Men are following their own commands when they sin. That makes us accountable.

Choices always have parameters. Before salvation, those parameters are much narrower. After salvation, we are free and so our choice parameters broaden.

FK: "We follow our nature, unless it is changed by God."

And I thought you said we follow what God says we must do. Which is it, FK?

Both are true and consistent. We always follow our natures in accordance with God's plan. At salvation, our natures are changed. Where do you see a problem?

From what you are telling me sin is something that had to happen because God says so. If our rebellion and fall is the result of something God said must happen, knew it would happen, made sure it happens, then why is He 'offended?' I hope you realize you didn't answer my question.

God is offended, but He chose to "go through it" because He has greater good in mind. God chose to order the universe as He did, and that included sin in the world and His being offended at it. He could have ordered the universe differently, but He didn't.

(If you think this still doesn't answer your question, then just say so and I will try again. :)

8,818 posted on 02/03/2007 1:52:03 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg
[I am pinging blue-duncan and Dr. E only because they were on your list; if you guys don't want to be included, please let me know; I understand]

Kosta: Let me get this straight: God writes the script and says "Man must rebel against me. The only reason he shall rebel against me is that I say it must happen

FK: You say it like it's a bad thing

Well, if He is 'offended' and 'angry' with us because of the 'rebellion' it must be a bad thing.

My point is: if He scripted it, as you claim, and it had to happen that way, no reason for anger and offense, let alone deicide.

Kosta: So, in truth, man did not have a choice, but was predestined to rebel.

FK: God could have created Adam and Eve to be immune to sin. He did not. Therefore, that sin would happen was part of God's plan

Fine, but that doesn't explain the 'offense.'

Kosta: Then, if I am reading your theology correctly, man was trapped from the get-go to fall into the pit of sin created by God.

FK: No, God did not create sin. However, it was part of God's plan that man would sin

I said man was trapped to fall into the pit of sin...let's not paraphrase and change the meaning.

If man had no choice, but to act as God directed, then God created man destined to commit sin. The sin, then, is not the result of man's will, but his inevitable, predestined fate, of which God is the author.

I don't have a problem being God's 'thing' that He can do whatever he pleases with. I am asking why is God 'offended' by us things, doing exactly as He wants us to?!

God is offended, but He chose to "go through it" because He has greater good in mind

Greater Good? What are you talking about? God is trying to get us restored to the original state. We are just trying to get back to the beginning.

There was no need to "go through it," FK. What God created was as good as it gets.

(If you think this still doesn't answer your question, then just say so and I will try again. :)

So. :)


8,840 posted on 02/03/2007 6:20:28 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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