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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Gamecock; The_Reader_David; xzins; Quix; HarleyD
Even as a Southern Baptist I know that baptism is not required to be Christian

It's not?

Of course, God commands it

There's a clue...

so all Christians should be baptized, but it is not salvific

It washes away our sins. If we die immediately after Baptism we should go straight to heaven.

It's an act of adoption into the Body of Christ. What could be more salvific than that?

For Judaism, circumcision is not an 'option.' If you wanted to convert to Judaism (and Christianity in those days was Judaism), you had to meet the requirements.

What +Paul was suggesting was some new and yet unknown kind of covenant with God which was not Judaism.

Paul is correcting all those who believe that ritual is required to enter Heaven.

Right, he was re-inventing Judaism in the eyes of those present. I have news for you: Judaism was a liturgical religion with "rituals." If that is what +Paul was saying, then he is clearly in conflict with the Church, because these "rituals" are considered sacraments.

Of course, you can say they are only rituals, and I can say the Bible is only a book. The Jews followed the Law (of Moses given to him by God). The Law required "rituals." Observant Jews could not agree with +Paul, as his suggestion was contrary to God's Law. Being a Pharisee, I doubt that +Paul had problems with "rituals."

Christ said He came to fulfill the Law, and He gave His revelation to Paul personally

And God gave the Law to Moses. Please don't tell me Christ personally told +Paul to break the Law God gave to Moses.

8,528 posted on 02/01/2007 8:57:03 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; Gamecock; The_Reader_David; xzins; Quix; HarleyD; Blogger; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
[Baptism] washes away our sins. If we die immediately after Baptism we should go straight to heaven. It's an act of adoption into the Body of Christ. What could be more salvific than that?

One ritual performed on an unsuspecting gets one into Heaven? That sounds pretty cheap. :) Southern Baptists and Reformers believe that it was Christ's blood that washed away our sins, not a ritual with water. It is blood that redeems:

Lev 17:11 : 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. KJV

Heb 9:22 : 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. KJV

In addition, we are justified by faith:

Rom 5:1 : 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: KJV

Gal 3:8-9 : 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. KJV

So, grace is not had by anything we do, because:

Rom 11:6 : 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. KJV

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FK: "Paul is correcting all those who believe that ritual is required to enter Heaven."

Right, he was re-inventing Judaism in the eyes of those present. I have news for you: Judaism was a liturgical religion with "rituals." If that is what +Paul was saying, then he is clearly in conflict with the Church, because these "rituals" are considered sacraments.

I actually agree with you that Paul is fully in conflict with the Church. I knew we could agree on something. :)

Of course, you can say they are only rituals, and I can say the Bible is only a book. The Jews followed the Law (of Moses given to him by God). The Law required "rituals."

Yes, the Law required rituals, but are we saved by rituals now? Do you think that the OT Jews were actually saved through rituals?

And God gave the Law to Moses. Please don't tell me Christ personally told +Paul to break the Law God gave to Moses.

No, Christ wouldn't say that. :) But Paul doesn't teach to break the Law. He confirms what was always true, that it is by grace we are saved through faith.

9,150 posted on 02/06/2007 1:07:24 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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