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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; Gamecock; The_Reader_David; xzins; Quix; Blogger; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
FK: "... Do you think Jesus never spoke of saving Gentiles? How do you interpret this: John 10:15-16 ..."

First, Christ did speak to the Apostles only when He was teaching. Other sheep refers to other Semitic people, the Phoenicians, the Canaanites, and other Jewish tribes. The word "people" really means clans. The Greek word fulh in the NT refers to the descendants of Jacob, not Gentiles.

But the text doesn't say "people", it says "sheep". Obviously "sheep" does refer to the concept of people, but you can't use the Greek for a word that isn't there. :) Besides, if every reference to Christ's sheep only referred to Jews by birth, then we are all toast! :)

To your first point, Christ commanded the Apostles to go out and spread what He taught them. Those teachings were meant for us too, including the teaching to further spread the word. If they were not, then what's the point? If only the hierarchy are called to spread the word, then far, far fewer people will ever hear the word, and far fewer will ever be saved. That contradicts your position that God wants all to come to Him.

In the context [of Matt. 8:5-10], the centurion converted to Judaism, not some new religion called Christianity. Nothing stops the Gentiles from embracing Judaism. Christ however, never taught that Judaism needs to be modified, by breaking God's Laws, in order to accommodate the Gentiles.

We are talking about whether Christ spoke of saving Gentiles. The centurion was clearly a Gentile. Christ said he had great faith, leading us to believe he was saved. There it is. --- As we have been discussing, Christ came to fulfill the Law, not to break it, whether in accommodation or not. Paul reveals that fulfillment.

8,491 posted on 02/01/2007 3:12:25 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Gamecock; The_Reader_David; xzins; Quix; HarleyD
Obviously "sheep" does refer to the concept of people, but you can't use the Greek for a word that isn't there

What does that mean? It's in the Gospels. Are you saying the Gospels were not written in Greek?

Besides, if every reference to Christ's sheep only referred to Jews by birth, then we are all toast!

Christ never, ever taught to the Gentiles. Christ never invited them. Jews could not fraternize or mix with the Gentiles. They could only live next to them.

There was no reason to preach to the non-believers. But the Gentiles are always welcome to convert to Judaism. What Christ taught, and what the Apostles thought He taught was Judaism. There was no reason to preach Judaism to non-believers.

Christ commanded the Apostles to go out and spread what He taught them

He did. He sent them to preach to the 12 tribes/clans/phule of Israel (descendants of Jacob).

Sitting at the throne (end times) judging the 12 tribes of Israel (not all nations of the world). The promise to the 12 tribes hope to attain (not all nations of the world), only the names of the 12 tribes will be there...

Those teachings were meant for us too, including the teaching to further spread the word. If they were not, then what's the point?

The point is that the Church failed in Israel. There was no life for it anywhere among the 12 tribes of Israel. I think most people do not understand that the Church was about to become extinct.

The next (and only) logical step was to turn to the Gentiles. I am willing to believe that it was God's way of showing us what Christ really taught but no one understood, not even the Apostles. But the Bible does not seem to provide evidence to support that belief.

We are talking about whether Christ spoke of saving Gentiles. The centurion was clearly a Gentile. Christ said he had great faith, leading us to believe he was saved

You are right, but you are forgetting that as far as everyone was concerned the Centurion became a Jew by converting to Judaism. The Christ believing Jews of the time did not practice "Christianity" as we know it today, FK. They were Jews in belief, in Scripture (they only had the OT), and in places of worship (synagogues).

The Pharisaical sect developed alongside the Sadduccees about two centuries before Christ. They were as far apart as night and day in their end-times beliefs, and many other beliefs. The latter denied even the angels although the OT is full of angelic references.

Judaism was not a "catholic" religion but a bunch of different sects using similar Scriptural sources. It was an amalgam of beliefs and traditions. It still is. About have only one thing they have in common is their dneial of Christ Jesus as the Son of God.

The idea of a messiah, who was supposed to be a mortal human, and was to become [literally] a king of Israel (just as David was), originated at that time. Up to that point, Judaism basically maintained that man was in no need to be saved. They still believe that.

Along with the messianic beliefs, came the beliefs in resurrection, which was also foreign to Judaism up to that time. So, what Christ preached was in of itself not blasphemous. He rubbed the Jewish authorities raw when He suggested that He was the real Son of God (which is polytheism as far as Judaism is concerned, and therefore the worst kind of Gentile-pagan proposition).

But you must understand that no one who accepted Jesus as the Messiah was working outside of Judaism. Gentiles who accepted Him accepted Judaism and became Jews.

Even His own Apostles were not really clear as to just when was He going to take the throne of Israel as a real king (all kings, by the way, were 'anointed by God').

In all instances, Christ is referred to as the King of Israel. Although Christians consider themselves "extended" Israel, and +Paul makes us into 'grafts' to Israel, Christ's ministry was about the Jews, for the Jews and by the Jews until it morphed, by necessity, into a universal religion.

Again, I am willing to believe that this is was one of those mysterious God's ways of telling us what His real plan was, but it's not so clear from the Bible, and apparently not even the Apostles were quite clear about it.

8,525 posted on 02/01/2007 8:33:07 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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