Is there a Biblical principle that says that one believer's prayers are greater than another's because of status or position? Since Mary is being venerated for what she did, this seems to be another works-based principle.
When I see the words "Holy Mary, save me!", the last thing in the world I think of is a prayer request. And please believe me, this has nothing to do with my bias against Apostolic views. I simply look at the words and I see a request of someone who could directly make it happen. There are plenty of other words that would make me think it was a request for intercessory prayer, but none of them are used. Can you understand why I am having a problem seeing it the way you do from a logical standpoint?
Also keep in mind that we do ask the saints for things other than prayer. We also ask for guidance. And, of course, we thank them and honor them for their witness.
Thank you for saying so. Other than this has been advertised to me, and what you are saying fits much more in line with the evidence I have seen.
None of that takes away from Christ. We discussed it before: when I spend time with my children and my parents in law, it take nothing from my love for my wife; rather, it is another expression of my love for her. Likewise with Christ: it is because I love Him, I feel compelled to put myself in the company of His saints and His mother.
I do believe it takes away from Christ. When you spend time with your children and in-laws it certainly takes away time with your wife. But since you do not worship her in a religious sense, this is not necessarily a bad thing. However, you are asking God to share your time with Him the same way you would ask your wife to share your time with the in-laws. I really don't think these are comparable. One passage that comes to mind is:
Luke 10:41-42 ; 41 "Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her."
When I think of one minute spent in prayer to Mary or any Saint, I think of Martha.
CHristianity has a lot of theat "works based principle". But to the question of scripture, sure: "For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much" (James 5:16)
When I see the words "Holy Mary, save me!", the last thing in the world I think of is a prayer request.
Yes, but you are not familiar with the Orthodox frame of reference. I put this plea in the context of the Incarnation and have no such confusion.
When you spend time with your children and in-laws it certainly takes away time with your wife
Time it takes, from something. Usually from some daily pursuits. But it does not take my love away: I am loving my wife by spending time with the people she loves. Martha had nothing to do with it, -- she was cooking in the kitchen, not praying to anyone.
Other than this has been advertised to me
Really? The first thing one would say about the saints is that we give them honor. Intercession is secondary. They are the martyrs who gave you your religion, and paid with their lives. Literally. Think about it.
Is there a Biblical principle that says that one believer's prayers are greater than another's because of status or position?
I wouldn't know, but there's the experience of many. My dreadful supermarket tabloid-quality secret is that the REAL reason I'm catholic is that I always lose stuff and the prayers of St. Anthony of Padua are spectacularly effective when it comes to finding stuff. After the fiftieth or so time my car keys appear within ten seconds of my imploring the intercession of Anthony, all objections to appealing for the help fo the saints seem forced and formal.
Also "greater"? That's not the word that would have come to my mind, nor do I find myself thinking in terms of "status or position".
As to the phrasing of "St. Mary Save us" lingo, yeah, it makes me kind of lift my skirts too. But I have recently been in a tyranny, the Sheriff's Office, where you serve at the Sheriff's pleasure and there is no grievance procedure at ALL. So I get, after the flesh, the idea of saying to some sergeant, "Listen, You gotta do something. You have to tell the sheriff we just can't keep doing it this way." And after having done that a few times and had it "work", I can see saying, "Sarge, go do your stuff, PLEASE! Give us a break here!" So in the context of a series of interactions involving lots of intercessions and one remarkably effective intercessor, I think the phrasing is not as repellent "upon further review" as it is on its face.
Please remember. I'm not trying to convey an argument so much as a flavor here. I'm not going for capitulation but for something more like, "Yeah, if I had several martinis I could see how you might think that ...."
Okay, Mary and Martha and the good portion: This was totally ignored earlier, but for me, in my personal experience, I don not think I am NOT talking to God, just because I'm talking to you. A fortiori, I do not think that talking to Mary means I stopped talking to God. I don't say this as an argument, but as a report of experience. Further most of the time I do not view prayer as labor or as being "anxious about many things". On the contrario! The three high points of my Monday-through-Friday are when my schedule allows going to my parish church, praying a Rosary with the between 20 and 100 other people there, then celebrating Mass, beginning with the psalms and lections of evening prayer AND with a brief reflection or exposition of the readings by one of our stable of outstanding Dominicans.
I'm not doing this to impress God (as IF!) or to rack up credits in the indulgence account. It's more like going to the spa, (I imagine, never having gone to a spa.)
Okay, HERE's a metaphor, from water skiing: You know how when you let go of the rope you sort of scoot along on top of the water, then you stop, and you sink down, and the water comes up around you and envelopes you? That's what it's like! I get in the pew and on my knees, let go of the rope, and sink into the love and mystery. Then the whole thing is "the good portion".
And I think this may account for the sense of outrage when people make contemptuous and disparaging remarks about our devotional behavior.
My wife and I had fertility issues and finally were blessed with a daughter, who (not counting the year she was 13, when she was possessed by hormonal demons) has been a nonpareil blessing!
The sorrow of sub-fertility, the joy of a pregnancy that did not end two or three days after it was noticed, the miracle of the birth, the, how shall I say it, honor of staggering our of bed at 2 am to perform routine personal baby maintenance, plug the kid into the mama, wake up, repeat routine baby maintenance, put kid back in crib ... All that could be made fun of. One could use really very nasty language indeed about the activity we politely call "trying to have a baby," and to do so would be to display a really horrible and disgusting coarseness and complete insensitivity to our personal pain and, more importantly, to the wonder of being invited to cooperate with God in the development of a new candidate for His miraculous Grace.
So when some smart alec talks about our "droning" our way through rosaries and so on and contemptuously compares what we do to Tibetan prayer wheels, my gut reaction is not far from the one I would have if somebody made fun of what my wife and I went through.
In both cases, someone who saw only "externals" would be mocking "internals" of amazing profundity and would be stabbing at a place where we are most easily wounded. That's the stuff of which "Holy Wars" are made.
Enough. There's something else I should be doing.
Well put.