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To: D-fendr
How come I come upon this when it's past my bedtime?Earlier, is suggested (and this is a notion I got first from Dante) that the punishment is integral to the sin, is the "coming true" of the sin. I can no more reject God and live then I can close my eyes and see -- that sort of thing.

Then we have the notion which I believe that all "justice" (or nearly all )was civil, personal almost. If I "have shot mine arrow o'er the house// And hurt my brother", I owe somebody something. There was a law in Iceland, I just read: There shall be no such thing as an accident. In other words, I hurt somebody; I pay; that's that. Mens, schmens!

As the Calvinists in the conversation will eagerly tell you, I am not a Calvinist. But I think that in your thoughtful post and my clunky efforts what we're achieving is to say that is is NOT totally off the wall for someone to be doomed to sin and yet justly punished for his sin.

I rode shotgun on an extradition from Brooklyn to Charlottesville. The young man we picked up was charming and pleasant. And doomed. He had no clue. It was against his sense of honor to be dissed by Corrections Officers, so when his tender honor was offended he retaliated. Consequently he spent right much time in the hole at Rikers. One of our deputies had been a CO so he knew this particular guy and confirmed my impression that he would certainly do all his time, because, well, honor demanded it.

And it was important to him that I understand that he only boosted stuff from stores. He didn't burgle or rob individuals.

It was as if the categories of thought that are requisite for life outside the pokey were just not part of his armamentarium. He was doomed. I hated it, but I sure don't want him on the outside!

And yet, sometimes, too rarely, I pray for him. Such a nice guy, and such a huge, self-destructive jerk.

8,241 posted on 01/31/2007 8:08:14 PM PST by Mad Dawg ("It's our humility which makes us great." -- Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers)
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To: Mad Dawg

Thanks for your kind words and reply. I do see your point. It's more subtle than I saw at first; it's a good one.

I'd like to focus on the example you gave, your experience with the clueless young man.

I don't think he's doomed. And I doubt either of us think he was doomed from birth.

For two reasons.

First, we are given certain capacities. Nature, nurture, in some manner we have limitations of capability and capacity. The best we can do is the best we can do within our limitations. Being a thief and not a robber was this young man's expression of this: "I don't scare and hurt people, I just take the stuff from stores."

That this was important to him I think may go beyond trying to express he's a lesser criminal - he recognizes it is a lesser crime, less harmful. I know that honor among thieves is a joke, but that theives know anything about honor is evidence of some conscience. And conscience comes from God. God works even on theives and robbers and murders. I think He may work even harder.

What may be easy for us, may be incredibly difficult for him. How do we determine the worth of an action? I think scripture gives us guidance. And one act of kindness from this young man is greater than a hundred from you or I. If his capacity makes it more difficult for him, he would not be the first to make a virtue of necessity.

Second, I don't think he is doomed because there is always hope. We may have looked at the snide enforcer before Damascus as hopeless. I know you know this also, I'm just pointing it out in context of this example.

But yes, he suffers the cost of his sins, his "self-destruction". But he knows he has choices and he knows, or will soon, that his choices aren't working very well.

In terms of paying a price for our wrong choices, it does not even take a judicial system. Justice is immediate and unavoidable. Without Rikers, the young man is paying a price. The murderer loses, for himself, the value and sanctity of life. The theif loses security of his possesions. The adulterer the gift of faithful love...

Repentance and forgiveness are the only way to regain what is lost here. And repentance is always possible, hope is never lost. Even for those we see as the most hopeless, to Jesus they were most valuable.

These are my views, FWIW.

thanks again for your reply..


8,473 posted on 02/01/2007 12:50:00 PM PST by D-fendr
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