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To: kosta50

Yes, that's pretty much what I took away from it. It used a very sharp knife to separate the differences. I learn more about the differences in theology at the same time I'm learning the similarities in the spirituality. It's an odd feeling.

The article was very interesting to me because the theological points of 'original sin' I hadn't considered much until recently, and I agree with the author's position on the experience of God. Most definitely he's correct on why many in the West have rejected religion and in turn the "God" often taught. This was very similar to my much of my experience growing up.

I came to Catholicism very late in life, so my experience is quite different from people my age who went through Catholic school with the Baltimore Catechism.

From those I talk to, their experiences were widely varied. Theology for a child is often learned by whom they are taught by as much as what they are taught. Not much is really hidden from children. Words don't count for as much, anyway.

The same was true for me growing up Protestant. The closest I came to knowing God from a clergyman as a child was from the pastor at a tiny country Baptist Church when I was eleven. And it wasn't in the theology he tried to teach me - I couldn't tell you a single thing I learned about it.

The Roman Catholic Church is huge - huge in history and depth and breadth. Much of it is in common with the Orthodox, a thousand years of it at least and a thousand years hence. There's lots and lots of room in the Church.

There are those I know with bad experiences of the justice God. Then there are those who spent their time with "He and I" or Merton and "Seeds of Contemplation", The Little Flower, Teresa of Avila… a view of God more in common with the view expressed in the article.

So I have a love-hate relationship with theology. I've been told that one can only know what Orthodoxy is by living it, and I wonder if that's not true of all religion. The differences I see may often be colored by the underlying theology, but it's how it's lived that it can really be known.

I'm just a wee baby in the Church, and everything I say here is just my view through beginner's eyes.


Sorry the length, and thanks again for the article and all the other information you present on these threads.


8,077 posted on 01/29/2007 11:47:47 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr; Kolokotronis
The article was very interesting to me because the theological points of 'original sin' I hadn't considered much until recently

Kalomiros' article seems odd to us today with respect to his lumping the Catholics and Protestants into one basket of "Western Christianity" because the Catholics are not so much changing their theology as they are returning to the mindset of their patristic roots [attenuating their legalistic approach].

Clearly, the author was lambasting the distortion of legalism and paganism that has invaded Western theology ever so slowly over the past 2,000 years and, as he says, made it unrecognizable to the patristic East.

The EOC did not develop the "no original sin" theory. The concept of original sin is unknown to the East. Today, most Catholics will echo the Orthodox doctrine, even though still calling a sin, namely that the 'original sin' is not a real sin committed by us, but a consequence of Adam's sin.

The Bible is clear that no one can atone or suffer for another man's sin(s). In the eyes of God, no one is guilty of Adam's sin except Adam himself.

And we know what that consequence is. "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." [Eze 18:20]

The sickness that we inherit as a result of our ancestral sin is like a baby born addicted to drugs, because the mother, through her own choice, became an addict.

The "curse" is our own, not God's, just as His love sooths those who love Him, and burns those who hate Him, yet it never ceases to be love, as God never changes; what changes are our spiritual states.

The burden of guilt in the Orthodox East is not based on Adam's sin, but on our own. We are born guilty of nothing. An addicted infant is not condemned because of his addiction, but because of his mother's choice he is born with a deadly disruption, drawn to the very substance that will kill him.

Until Christ came, we had no cure. Those who are saved are not 'reformed' but rehabilitated. We are not misbehaved so that we can be 'reformed,' but sick so that we may be healed.

8,087 posted on 01/30/2007 7:20:19 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: D-fendr; Kolokotronis
So I have a love-hate relationship with theology. I've been told that one can only know what Orthodoxy is by living it, and I wonder if that's not true of all religion

Being Orthodox is not a theology, but a way of life, where God is present in everything. Do you say the Lord's Prayer first thing you do when you get up? The last thing you do before you go to bed? Do you say "Thy will be done" in complete trust that no matter whatever happens to you, a sinner, will be merciful and just (even if you don't like it)?

Do you hate a murderer or do you feel sorry and pray for him? Do you thank God for every day whether it is good or bad?

The Orthodox will make special bread on certainf easts and will take the water and the flour to the priest to bless them. Thye will take a bath, and say a prayer before they make the bread.

In Serbia, all significant days are mentioned as feasts (i.e. "The Constitution of the Assumption Day"). In Russian, Sunday is called Resurrection. Not even 80 years of communism could change that. The Russian word for thank you (spasibo) comes from (spasi Bog), "God save." Orthodox countries, as Koloktoronis says the saying goes in Greece, are where people "walk Orthodox."

I am not sure if this is true of all rleigions. It is of Judaism, which is why it hasn't changed and why the Jews are still Jews. It is a way of life that inseparable from who you are, how you are and what you are. Communism tried to wipe out Orthodoxy and failed. The Ottomans choked Orthodoxy and failed. As Kolo says, he could go back 1,600 years and attend the same Divine Liturgy we Orthodox attend every week.

When Albanian thugs burned dozens of houses in a fit of rage three years ago in Kosovo, the fleeing families took only their icons with them. They have their priorities, and loving the world is not one of them. :)

But as to your hot-cold spells, that is reported by the most pious of the pious saints we know. We all stray and God always, ever so patiently and gently puts us back on track.

8,089 posted on 01/30/2007 7:39:57 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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