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To: D-fendr

What is absurd is that I spent several days explaining in detail what my view is concerning free will. What is absurd is that you are attributing things to me that I did not say and pat yourself on the back for doing it.

Once again, as far as free will goes - it is true - there is no such thing as entirely free will. Saved Christians are the ones with the closest thing to freedom that one knows and are free to make good choices for God and bad choices; but, even that freedom falls within the Sovereignty of God. God will not allow, for instance, someone to do something which messes up His plan through the ages for this world. It will all work out exactly as He said, and it isn't because He foresaw what we would do but because He has had a plan for this world even before the foundation of the world. NOTHING will thwart that plan. So for the saved, you could say we are freed from the bonds of sin but slaves to God. As a matter of fact, Paul said this very thing:

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Lost people also have freedom of will in terms of their relationship with God. God is not saying "I am not allowing you to come." He is not holding them back. But, they are NOT FREE in the respect that they have become willing slaves of sin. They will never be free unless the Spirit set them free. Romans 8:2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.


This does not sound like we were truly free prior to salvation does it? Rather, we would only ultimately choose to do evil. Even our "good" acts were done with impure motives (for self or for some other reason than for God). As such, it was filthy before God's holiness. Only by the quickening of the Spirit and the washing of Christ's blood atonement are we made free and clean and able to choose to sin or to do good with good motivation.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


8,046 posted on 01/29/2007 6:20:28 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger

If you're saying that we are neither completed determined nor completely free, then we are agreeing. But I don't think you are saying that, or you're qualifying it such that it free will is meaningless.

We have capabilities, capacities, and conscience. I think you have limited the first two into a framework that is deterministic.

Do you really believe that only saved Christians can choose to do anything other than evil?


8,049 posted on 01/29/2007 6:30:48 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: Blogger

Or maybe my confusion is coming in because you believe some are born saved?


8,050 posted on 01/29/2007 6:44:59 PM PST by D-fendr
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