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To: hosepipe
Re: [ Mary is the mother of the Son. That's why He's called the Son of man. The Son of man can only be called that if they had a mother. ]

" Wrong..

You can't say wrong without addressing the logic specifically. Is the Son of man God? The only way to say it is wrong, is to say either: the Son of man is not God, or the Son of man was not a man.

"Jesus existed (as son) before he entered his earthly body"

Jesus did not "enter" a body. Jesus was a man born of woman, just like all other men. Most of the answer to this, I covered here. I do not believe in such things as supernatural spirits. The body is a physical machine that supports the functions of a sentient rational being. The life giving force is in the physics of the machine. The spirit refers to the person, or self that's generated from the capacity of that machine.

"Jesus has always existed. ...The Spirit of the Son(Jesus) is (and was) eternal."

Lets examine some of the words and concepts used here. First is the word eternal. The word eternal refers to time, which is a dimension that measures duration of existence, and sequence of interaction, which can include cause and efffect. Some might say that God is timeless. That's impossible, because the duration of existence would be zero, and there is no meaning to the word eternal at all. In order to exist, a time dimension is essential.

That time does not need to be on the same clock as this world's time. The existence of the clock allows for the concept of eternity to be meaningful and the concept of sequential events in time applies.

Jesus was begotten. That means that the incarnation occurred in time. Regardless of the fact that this world's clock is different than Heaven's, the incarnation was not eternal. Also, God must have decided at some point to create. It's illogical to claim that God eternally decided to create. It's also illogical to say the incarnation was eternal on the same grounds.

What is known is that man is in the image and likeness of God. Symmetry applies, because of the equality and the opposite is true. This applies to capacity only, not on anything generated by that capacity. So, as per the explanation of trinity, given in the above link, the capacity of Jesus, generated those aspects of the Holy Spirit of God, which were solely as a result of human action. Although the values held were the same, the judgments and actions taken, were done as truly human action. The eternal Father, whose spirit was the Holy Spirit, could never do that. Only a human, in truly human condition could do that. Since the Spirit was to be the same as a result of that human action. God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, was dependent on the actions of Jesus. That is the nature that resulted in the announcement of pride from the Father at Jesus' action and decision to be Baptized.

So, although Jesus occured in time, His was the same eternal Spirit that was the Father's. They are one, but it can not be said, that all of the Holy Spirit was within Jesus during His earthly life, or the additions to the Spirit, that God as man provided, were eternal before God's pondering creation itself. What can also, be said, is that it's the same Holy Spirit, and never contradicted itself. That is eternal.

So, since both the Father and the Son are responsible for that Holy Spirit, Jesus was right to say I Am. Just as man is the right hand man for his soul, so too was Jesus the right hand man of God. It's the spirit that's common to each person of a trinity and each person of that trinity is identified as the same individual. In this case, the individual is identified as God. So, Mary, being the mother of the indivual that is recognized as God incarnate, is the mother of God. To say anything else, would require denial of God's humanity and Gen 1 itself.

7,873 posted on 01/28/2007 4:44:03 PM PST by spunkets
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To: spunkets; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
[ I do not believe in such things as supernatural spirits. The body is a physical machine that supports the functions of a sentient rational being. The life giving force is in the physics of the machine. The spirit refers to the person, or self that's generated from the capacity of that machine. ]

I Know you believe that... thats why I said what I said..
Henceforth you cannot say you were not told what I said..
Possibly not the first time(you were told) either..

Also true... Jesus said the Sheep and the Goats MUST be separated..
And thats a Good thing.. and is happening..

7,875 posted on 01/28/2007 5:32:20 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: spunkets

It is very late in this thread, and you are going over matters already discussed, and asserting things the Church never taught. Read the Nicene Creed:

. . .And in One Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made, who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and was made man. . .

The begetting of the Son refers to His eternal ontological source in the Father, not to the Incarnation, even as the procession of the Spirit from the Father refers to His eternal ontology, not His temporal, economical manifestation in the world.

Some of the Fathers indeed paralleled the eternal begetting of the Word with the Incarnation in formulae like "Begotten of His Father without mother, and of his mother without father," but the primary application of 'begotten' to the Word is, as in the Creed, the eternal begetting from the Father.




7,876 posted on 01/28/2007 5:48:37 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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