I am not in a lather. Or I wasn't until yhou said I was.
When you choose an unfortunate metaphor, I'd ask you not to make personal comments when the logical consequences of your metaphor are used to make a point you don't like and didn't foresee. The use of your words to show the possible areas of examination in your thought is not a hostile action and does not call for a hostile response. If you don't want your assertions to be examined, don't make any.
Wooing is NOT about asking permission.
Are you kidding? So you went to your future wife and said, "We're getting married." And she said, "Whatever." I bet. And even in an arranged marriage, the bride can acquiesce willingly or unwillingly.
And I wasn't talking about wooing in the old days, and didn't know you were. I was talking about wooing right now. Any son of a gun comes to my daughter and says, "We're getting married, the choice is all mine," he'll have me to contend with, and it will be ugly.
For the rest of it, we are not communicating. One doesn't make a refutation by asserting the contrary. One makes it with argument. I agree the initiative is all His. I've said it over and over and over and over and over and over again. And you never seem to hear it. I keep saying it, I've said repeatedly that works and merit are gifts, and I gave an example of how the self-disclosure of the Truth bestows freedom rather than taking it away at 7801. And yet you respond as if I'd never said these things.
You set up metaphors, like sovereignty and then won't allow them to be explored. Look, a sovereign can have willing subjects or unwilling subjects. Even if the sovereign comes into a city and overwhelms it, he still can make those he subjugates willing to have him as lord, or he can make them unwilling and resentful subjects. This is plain in history, in fiction, and in Machiavelli. So to pretend that I am saying that God depends on us for his sovereignty is, well, incomprehensible nonsense totally unsupported by what I've posted.
Get back to me when you want to converse. I've made every effort to be civil.
You took me too personally. No offense was meant.
Any son of a gun is NOT God. That is the one thing that folks do not seem to understand. God is God. If he wished to make us all robots He could do it. If He wished to send all of us to Hell and create a class of creatures strictly for Hell He could do it. He is God.
You set up metaphors, like sovereignty and then won't allow them to be explored.
God's sovereignty is not a metaphor. It is part of who He is. He is 100% completely and total in charge by right. It isn't granted. It isn't earned. It simply is.
Look, a sovereign can have willing subjects or unwilling subjects.
And God does. Even the lost ultimately bow to His will, though they themselves despise Him.
Even if the sovereign comes into a city and overwhelms it, he still can make those he subjugates willing to have him as lord, or he can make them unwilling and resentful subjects.
Now there you go again. Sometimes your language concerning the Sovereignty of God betrays a certain unwillingness for God to make Sovereign choices over His subjects. It's okay for God to be sovereign as long as He doesn't violate anyone's will. It's okay for God to be sovereign as long as everyone is happy about it. In this metaphor (which your illustration is), God is like a sovereign coming into a city and subjugating it. He then has to be nice so that people will follow Him. The facts are, God saved our wretched miserable souls by His sovereign choice. It wasn't because of anything that we merited. It was ALL of Him. and His will to do so. He is God. He can do that. Others, He left be where they desired to be. Outside the gates of the city. The choice was not arbitrary for it was all in accordance with His plan before the foundation of the world. But neither was it because of anything that MadDawg or Blogger did or any capability we brought to the table. We were the objects of His mercy. Purely mercy. Not mercy mixed with anything. We deserved punishment. He gave us life. We deserved weeping and He dried our tears. The fact is, God is totally sovereign and those who are His subjects DO love Him because of who He is and all He has done for them. The world does not love Him. Short of the Holy Spirit's move in our lives, neither would we have loved Him.
This is plain in history, in fiction, and in Machiavelli. So to pretend that I am saying that God depends on us for his sovereignty is, well, incomprehensible nonsense totally unsupported by what I've posted.
When you say that God has to ask permission, then you place it in our hands and have God waiting on us for something. He depends on us to make the right move or right decision. Remember, in Revelation, he was not speaking to the lost. He was speaking to the saved. It was the church of Laodicea that had gotten a bunch of lost folks tangled up therein and the saved were being heavily influenced by them into lukewarmness. The sheep are the ones with ears to hear. The goats will not hear. They won't follow the good shepherd. The sheep will. Jesus says to the sheep (the only ones with a truly free will), I am standing here and knocking. If you hear me, open the door and our fellowship can be restored. The church people could have refused, in which case the preceding verse would take affect. They would suffer chastisement. More later. Get back to me when you want to converse. I've made every effort to be civil.