I'm not quite sure where you are in this discussion. I think POTS and OSAS are the same. As I see it the fundamental difference is "will" are we drawn to saving faith or do we choose saving faith. Either way we should be jumping up and down with joy. Saving Faith means your blessed with God's free gift of GRACE!
BTW: FK; I can't believe how diligent you are in responding to all posts. Feel free to skip mine if the discussion has moved on. :-)
"As I see it the fundamental difference is "will" are we drawn to saving faith or do we choose saving faith. Either way we should be jumping up and down with joy. Saving Faith means your blessed with God's free gift of GRACE!"
Perhaps it effects us in different ways at different times or according to the "step" we are on on the Ladder of Divine Ascent.
"At the start of the spiritual way, the soul usually has the conscious experience of being illumined with its own light through the action of grace. But, as it advances further in its struggle to attain theology, grace works its mysteries within the soul for the most part without its knowledge. Grace acts in these two ways so that it may first set us rejoicing on the path of contemplation, calling us from ignorance to spiritual knowledge, and so that in the midst of our struggle it may then keep this knowledge free from arrogance." +Diadochos of Photiki
I'm not quite sure where you are in this discussion. I think POTS and OSAS are the same. As I see it the fundamental difference is "will" are we drawn to saving faith or do we choose saving faith. Either way we should be jumping up and down with joy. Saving Faith means your blessed with God's free gift of GRACE!
You just happened to hit all the right buttons on one of my favorite subjects. :)
In my view, the starting point for the debate on OSAS vs. POTS is actually post-salvational. I see any difference between the two terms being defined by what we actually do after we are saved, and why that happens. When YOU say that OSAS and POTS are the same, I know exactly what you mean and I agree. However, partly for debate purposes, I have chosen to formally reject OSAS in favor of POTS.
The reason for this is what I call the "plain meaning" of OSAS. About a year ago, when I was in my Reformed infancy, I started arguing OSAS right here on FR. The problem was that my arguments really did lead to a plain meaning of OSAS. That is, once one is saved that's it, end of discussion, POTENTIALLY, a person could go off and lead a horrible life and still be saved, because OSAS. I really truly believed that just because I didn't know any better, I had never studied it.
Well, once I started down that road it took no time at all for opponents to start throwing verse after verse after verse after verse at me, all about works. I was utterly defenseless. LOL! Then, one of our mutual friends showed me the superiority of POTS, doctrinally. POTS is superior partly because it openly includes works as part of salvation. Works are a rock-solid guaranteed part, but they are acknowledged. There is no confusion under POTS. OSAS is inferior in my view because guys, just like me from a year ago, misinterpret the words of the phrase and believe a wrong thing. The plain meaning of POTS I see as much more secure.
Now, for practical purposes, this distinction has turned out very well for me in my debating. When I'm talking with Catholics and Orthodox and using terms aligned with POTS I get more agreement. This makes absolute perfect sense to me because if someone is not familiar with using the term OSAS, what are they supposed to think? Probably the same thing I would in their shoes: just look at the words, and their implications, etc. So, that's the short version anyway. :) I just love the topic because I really lived through the transformation, and can really testify that there are plenty of people out there who don't get what OSAS is, as many learned people use it.
Interestingly, this can't help but remind me of the recent discussion on the title for Mary. When any learned Reformer whom I know uses the term OSAS I will know exactly what he/she means and all is well. However, I have chosen to only use POTS because there can be no ambiguity, and lurkers, beginning Christians, or posters not familiar with the nuances of OSAS, cannot be misled.
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Thanks for the kind words, WM. I look forward to your thoughts on all this. :)