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The point is that Mary is not God, and neither is she Steve. When I ask Mary to give me strength it is something she can give and so can Steve. When I "devote my services of my own free will for the salvation of mankind" to Mary but not to Steve it is because Mary gave us the Word for salvation of mankind, but Steve did not; and if Steve did something extraordinary for the salvation of mankind, then I would wish to devote my services to him too.

Mary gave us the Word????? Mary gave us??? Good grief Annalex, look at yourself! In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. God used the womb of Mary in order to become man. You all make a whole big deal out of Mary's obedience as if it is something so extraordinary as to merit eternal awe of her. Listen, when God Almighty sends an angel to speak to you personally and TELLS YOU what He is going to do, your saying "be it done to me as you said" is frankly not a gift of yourself but an acknowledgement that God is God and He can do what He wishes.

Mary was a pious woman. She was a Godly woman in that she didn't hesitate to follow God. But God didn't ask her "Mary, if you don't mind...." or "Mary, will you?" Mary's will wasn't really a part of it, though God chose to use her and found pleasure in blessing her with the honor. But Mary did NOT GIVE US the Word. Mary did not give us salvation. Mary didn't contribute to our salvation. God could have used any other woman from the tribe of Judah to accomplish His will. Mary was the one He chose to use, and we are blessed because of it - by GOD HIMSELF.

Jesus willingly came down. The Word became flesh. He did it for our salvation. It was an act of HIS WILL that caused the Word to come into this world He could have impregated Mary against her will. It so happens that she willingly agreed - but, God being sovereign, wasn't going through all the houses of the women of Judah and saying "uh, wanna be the mother of the Messiah?" Mary was a specific part of God's plan throughout the ages. Had she objected to Jesus putting his life in danger it would not stop Him. He did not need Mary's permission. She was a mere woman. She was NO DIFFERENT in her birth, life, or death from "Steve" except for the fact that she happened to be the one that God used. It could be Steve is not a Christian. Mary became one. But she was a mere mortal. She was a sinner. She needed a Savior. And she followed after God. For that reason and that reason alone she deserves our admiration - but she does NOT deserve our worship and the way Catholicism "venerates" her is worship. They build statues to her. They pray to her. They ask for HER to protect them. They ask for HER to forgive them. They ask for HER to take the role of God as their mediator and their advocate and make her a co-Redeemer because she grieved when her Son died. When they sin, a little chant in Mary's name makes it all better. When they die, many commit their lives to Mary's care. And yet you will tell me that it isn't idolatry. You will tell me it is not worship. Well, if it looks like a duck and quacks like one... it is.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

# John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Well, I would say we have done hit a irreconcilable issue here. You say we are worshipping her. We say we're not. I think we have to table it.

No question that God COULD have ravished Mary and impregnated her against her will. Do you really think he WOULD have?

It is true that we prize Mary rather more not only than the protomartyr (Steve?) but than all other Saints. The lingo I was recently made aware of is hyperdoulia (The first Google entry on the word - I checked because I was uncertain of the spelling - is

The distinctions which the Catholic theologians made between latreia, doulia, and hyperdoulia or hyoperdulia, are absurd, groundless sophisms.

and it's at http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/feuerbach/works/essence/ec07.htm -- Is that great or WHAT?)

As I say, I think this is irreconcilable. I do not recognize myself or my actions in what you say. I suspect that part of the issue is cultural -- even though it was Milton who said, I think "HE for God only, She for Christ in Him (though I find that some think that a scribal error and the original was She for God AND him, but I just work here) and Milton was no Catholic.

Still the idea of anyone, even Paul, saying "be imitators of me as I am of Christ," is just a non-starter these days. I think in earlier times no one would have a problem with giving "all" one's allegiance to a lady whose first command is, to nobody's surprise, "Give all your allegiance to my Son."

It was an act of HIS WILL that caused the Word to come into this world He could have impregated Mary against her will.

"He could have" in the sense that He had the power. He also could have redeemed all sin at any point in time, without any progressive revelation to the Jews, incarnation or resurrection, or the institution of the Church, or the inspiration of the Scripture. He is sovereign God, remember?

But God did not do any of that. He chose to adopt a lengthy plan of salvation that grew His own nation of Israel under the law, and that nation produced a woman who would be the pure vessel to willingly carry the Word to the world. This woman is Mary the God Giver, the Theotokos.