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To: hosepipe; Alamo-Girl
And the Holy Spirit?..

The Holy Spirit was sent to the Apostles according to the Gospels, and witnessed by others, to guide them, not to teach them. The Apostles were 'inspired.' We are not. They chose LXX as the course of the OT, and they quote our Lord jesus Chirst as using LXX in His references to the OT. That should be good enough for all Christians.

The important thing to remember is that the Holy Spirit did not teach them. Christ did.

This is the crucial difference. +Paul claims that God revealed Christ in him, not "to" him. He was not only converted to Christ instantly, but given all the knowledge to interpret the Christ he never knew. That is Gnosticism dear friend. Not even +John the Forerunner (Baptist) was that audacious!

7,338 posted on 01/23/2007 10:06:31 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; hosepipe; Buggman; Kolokotronis; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; .30Carbine; Quix
I truly regret your testimony that you do not recognize Paul’s words as Scripture, kosta50. Moreover, I regret your testimony that you do not know the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I do know Him, personally, and Christ through Him, personally – and have known Him for nigh onto a half century - not as concepts, but as Persons.

Evidently you cannot receive this, nevertheless to those who also know Him I testify that the indwelling Spirit (John 15-17, Romans 8, I Cor 2) authenticates both Peter’s testimony and Paul’s epistles:

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. – 2 Peter 3:14-16

Again, I aver it is crucial to understand the specially announced name of God, i.e. the Rock.

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he. – Deu 32:1-4

After all, that passage is in the “Song of Moses” which will be sung in heaven:

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. – Rev 15:2-4

As to antiquity, Deuteronomy is the second most copied book at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) – 33 copies, second only to Psalms. Some are copied in fragments like literature, poems or hymns. However, generally speaking, carbon dating of manuscripts at Qumran establish true antiquity of copies at several centuries B.C.

The Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies does not mention any change to the Masoretic Text needed with reference to Deuteronomy 32:1-4. However, although we do have a non-MT Hebrew version of Deutoronomy 32 from cave 4, 4QDt(q) – it only contains lines 37-43. So we cannot read anything into an omission here in comparing DSS to LXX.

But as to the faithfulness of the Torah itself there is no question. As I have already testified, the indwelling Spirit authenticates Scripture and leads us into Truth. (John 14, 15):

God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. – John 4:24

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

For a good summary of the antiquity of the Torah manuscripts, from IBSS :

The basic Hebrew text is called the Masoretic Text (MT), which is named after a group of scribes in the ninth century that preserved the text and added vowels and punctuation marks. The original Hebrew just had consonants, but a few consonants functioned as vowels. No one would know how to pronounce the Hebrew words unless vowels marks were added. This is a great help in understanding the text. (Hebrew Bible)

There were three different tasks of copying the OT. The Sopherim wrote the consonantal text. The Nakdanim added the vowel points and accents. The Masoretes added the marginal notes. An example is the Kethib (what is written) and Qere (what should be read). There are over 1,300 of these. The vowels of the Qere were written in the text of the Kethib. There are three different systems of vowel pointing, the Babylonian, Palestinian and Tiberian which the Masoretes created. The marginal notes called Masora were mainly written in Aramaic and were like a concordance.

Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls the Nash Papyrus was the oldest known witness to the OT which dated to the first or second century AD. It contained the decalogue. The second oldest were the Cairo Geniza fragments (about 200,000) which date to the fifth century AD (See Princeton Geniza Project). Most of these are in the Cambridge University Library and the Bodleian Library at Oxford. Today the oldest known text of the OT was discovered in 1979 in tombs across the Hinnom valley from Jerusalem. The text is the benediction of Aaron (Numbers 6:24-26) written on a silver amulet from the 7th century BC (Hoerth 1998, 386).

The oldest surviving manuscript of the complete Bible is the Codex Leningradensis which dates to 1008 AD. A Facsimile edition of this great codex is now available (Leningrad Codex 1998, Eerdmans for $225). The BHS (Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) follows this codex. The most comprehensive collection of old Hebrew manuscripts is in the Russian Public Library in St. Petersburg formerly called Leningrad. Another important text is the Aleppo Codex which is now in Jerusalem. The HUB (Hebrew University Bible) follows the Aleppo Codex. The Isaiah and Jeremiah editions are now available. For a more detailed study see The Text of the Old Testament by Ernst Wurthwein and Textual Criticism: Recovering the Text of the Hebrew Bible by P. Kyle McCarter, Jr.

The Nash Papyrus dating has been pushed back to approximately 200 BC (Hebrew manuscript collection - University of Cambridge Cambridge University Library) Like the DSS, it contains fragments of Deuteronomy, but not the one we are seeking here.

Nevertheless, the Jews always understood their responsibility to keep the Torah:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. – Deu 4:2

For Lurkers:

The Hebrew Alphabet wrt the history of the signs and the care in forming letters in Holy Scriptures.

Ancient Hebrew Translation Project - wrt the translation of poetic form v mechanical v literal


7,342 posted on 01/23/2007 10:53:50 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
[ The Holy Spirit was sent to the Apostles according to the Gospels, and witnessed by others, to guide them, not to teach them. ]

Spoken like one clueless of the "Spirit" in question..
I don't say that gladly either.. but sadly..

But indeed I'm not too sad.. I can pray for you.. am doing just that..
As are at least a couple others that I'm positive of.. You lucky dog..
I say that hopefully not to flame you, but to comfort you..

7,343 posted on 01/23/2007 11:28:42 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: kosta50; hosepipe; Alamo-Girl

"The Holy Spirit was sent to the Apostles according to the Gospels, and witnessed by others, to guide them, not to teach them."

That's not the testimony of the scriptures.

Luke 12:12, "For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."

John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

1 John 2:27, "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."


7,344 posted on 01/23/2007 11:31:09 AM PST by blue-duncan
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