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To: Quester
If this were true ... how could the Jerusalem Council (involving Peter, Paul, James, and others) ... agree to abandon circumcision as a requirement for Gentile Christians?

It wasn't just circumcision; it was entire Judaism! You tell me how and why? Christ never said the Law did not apply because those who believe in Him are under grace. +Paul did. Justified under grace is not Judaism.

Even +Barnabas, who brought +Paul to Jerusalem, and was the only close friend of +Paul's at that time among Apostles, sided with +Peter and the rest.

The Church was dying. The Christians were being hunted (read up on the underground life of the Cappadocian Christians, where +Paul taught, living in carved out caved). Israel rejected Christ. In order for the Church to survive, it had to seek its existence elsewhere. Knowing the Gentiles would never accept Judaism, +Paul convinced the rest that it was "do or die."

It is the Spirit which works to bring our imperfect understandings ... into agreement ... with the Truth (of course)

Apostles had imperfect understanding, and they were inspired?

Would we, could we ... agree on as much as we do ... without the guidance of the Spirit?

I wouldn't give us that much credit. We don't even fully agree on the Holy Trinity or Christiology, although we may use the same words.

Two thousand years later, there is a huge body of Protestants who are agreeing only with themselves individually, a little bit here and a little bit there. There are 30,000 various Protestant 'churches' with their own theology and creeds. Even the Apostolic Church is in deep disagreement on some issues and has been for one thousand years.

The Church has failed miserably to stop secularization. In Europe 5% of the people attend church regularly. In America (some figures are over-inflated) the percentage is much higher, but America is a secular society through-and-through.

You call that a success? It's not the failure of the Spirit. We failed. Miserably.

7,248 posted on 01/22/2007 9:21:58 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Two thousand years later, there is a huge body of Protestants who are agreeing only with themselves individually, a little bit here and a little bit there. There are 30,000 various Protestant 'churches' with their own theology and creeds. Even the Apostolic Church is in deep disagreement on some issues and has been for one thousand years.

Protestants agree with other (and with other christians) on far more than you think.

True Protestants churches (not the fringe groups) all agree on the centrality of Christ and His mission and message to save lost souls.

In fact, I think that you be hard-pressed to find many areas where Protestants don't agree ... and even those are areas where we agree ... to disagree.

The Church has failed miserably to stop secularization. In Europe 5% of the people attend church regularly. In America (some figures are over-inflated) the percentage is much higher, but America is a secular society through-and-through.

You call that a success? It's not the failure of the Spirit. We failed. Miserably.


Christ's mission was never to reform the world, ... but rather, ... to save souls out of the world.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
At this point, by any honest christian's count, ... the church has been used by God to save countless millions, if not billions, ... out of this world.

I'd call that a rousing success.

7,281 posted on 01/22/2007 5:42:59 PM PST by Quester
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