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To: Mad Dawg
[ 1. Do you think I am saying we are justified by works, that we earn salvation? 2. Or is there some conneciton between Transubstantiation and "works-righteousness" that I'm missing? ]

1. Justification by faith period, not works.. or works of faith..

2. Never considered whether RCC transubstantiation was actually justification by works before... Interesting question.. I suppose it is.. Yes it is.. Good question.. Maybe thats what ticks me off about it..

But there are so many things in the RCC that appear to me to be the same... justification by works.. That the book of Galatians totally exposes.. Seeing Judaizers as other than certain Jews is a jump for some.. But its true.. There are many Judaizers both Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Judeo-christian cultic practices too.. especially JW's and Mormans.. and more..

6,793 posted on 01/18/2007 6:02:21 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
I know I sometimes look like a "parser". And, who knows, maybe I am, in which case, may the Lord deliver me "and that right early".

With that apologetic introduction: There are two things which gnawed at me. (1)What distinguishes us from the Jews, who think Messias has not come? We think he has come, justified us, and gone, and will come again at the end of the age. They think He has not come. We agree that he is not here.

(2)It is, I think, the nature of humans to be thoughtful. My sheep wavered between choices. You could see them "thinking over" whether to go where I wanted them to go or not. But they were essentially "passionate" animals. I could sometime influence their "decisions" by crouching down and staring at them, because being stared at by predatory eyes is something in their programming. If I this scared them into the handling chutes, the ones who were friendly did not hold my aggressive behavior against me, and the ones who were skittish were not tamed by any amount of affection.

We, however, not only learn, but choose to learn. We reflect on our behavior and decide to try something new. We can discover that we are able to "program ourselves not to be afraid" and then we can undertake the programming.

If God will save me as human, then (I thought) maybe He must save me into better thinking. YES, my will is ravished by the realization of His love. But if I am always ravished, how am I free?

I will eagerly admit that when the truth reveals itself clearly as truth, then I have no hesitation in yielding to its embrace.

But we are moral. I don't mean we are good, I mean we are creatures about whom it is relevant to ask if our actions are good or not, and what in heaven's name we were thinking when we did THAT? If a sheep makes bad decisions, It gets eaten. Even a mature ram, properly cooked, tastes good. I don't condemn him. I regret that he didn't do what I wanted from that ram, and I ask Nancy to pass the A-1.

But when we have to hang Saddam, I think we recognize there is a loss here, almost even a tragedy. Here was someone made to choose and rejoice in good, and he blew it, and never turned to the One who could make his failure an occasion of a great redemption. This is a sorrowful thing.

So, I thought, I want to choose God. Not only when He ravishes me and shows me the joy of His forgiveness and Love, but when He is not clearly consoling me and "all occasions do inform against me" and it is not easy to choose Him. (Haven;t we all had times when we felt God had left town and wsn't coming back? We "knew" that wasn't true, but it sure felt like that) I'd like to think that, threatened with Lions or nails on a blackboard or a dentist's drill in the hands of a sadist, I would still affirm my trust in Him. I implore Him, not only for salvation, but for the grace to Love Him more nearly and to show that love more fearlessly and resolutely day by day.

What I want from Him, is the ability to choose Him, just as a son, helped by his father to rake the leaves, longs to be able to rake the leaves by himself and, maybe, surprise the Father with what he's done.

Now I know that every single, without exception, good gift comes from the Father in Heaven. So my yearning and its fulfillment come from Him. I know that. I boast of that. I rejoice in that. I count on that. I hope one day to have the courage to stake my life on that.

And it is in this sense that I rely on Him to enable me to do good works.

Maybe you saw my other analogy, the one about the gym membership. When I come before God, I will kneel and then say, Look at these biceps! Look at these quads! Watch me do push-ups and chin-ups. This is your doing, and it is marvelous, at least in my eyes. That I worked and hurt and sweat and groaned, and finally saw my muscles getting bigger and my push-ups going from maybe seven to fifteen to twenty. -- all this I have from you, and now I give it back to you.

If that sounds like Judaizing, well, I'd like to know how.

6,794 posted on 01/18/2007 6:40:59 PM PST by Mad Dawg ('Shut up,' he explained.)
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