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To: Forest Keeper
I copies this from a site..

Martin Luther (1483-1546):

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact.

(Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

" This immaculate and perpetual virginity forms, therefore, the just theme of our eulogy. Such was the work of the Holy Ghost, who at the Conception and birth of the Son so favoured the Virgin Mother as to impart to her fecundity while preserving inviolate her perpetual virginity."9

In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such great good things were given her that no one can grasp them. ... Not only was Mary the mother of him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God.

(Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 7, p. 572.)

The French reformer John Calvin (1509-1564):

It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor. ... Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary as at the same time the eternal God.

(Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348, 35.)

The Swiss reformer, Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531), wrote:

I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.

(Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)

The Bible:

In the Bible, it is obvious that Virgin Mary was always Virgin, and she only had one child: Jesus Christ, our Savior.

1- At Calvary:

It is obvious that Jesus did not have any other brothers nor sisters, because at Calvary He had to entrust His Mother to a friend, to John, " and from that moment the disciple took her to his own home" (Jn.19:27).

It would be unthinkable for a Jewish mother to go to live with a friend after the death of her son, if she had any other child of her own!...

* I find it intersting so many in here think themselves more knowledgeable than the vast vast asembly of Christians born before them who went to their graves convinced of the perpetual virgintiy of Mary. Saints, Popes, Ecumenical Councils, even the Progenitors of the Protestant Reformation are all wrong.

If everyone else who has ever lived is wrong and only you are right, what might that reveal about your ideas?

600 posted on 12/07/2006 12:47:07 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: bornacatholic
Thank you for the quotes. I understand the point you are making that Luther and Calvin, etc. did hold some RC views with which I disagree today. That's why I don't think either of them was infallible. Catholics also disagree with some of the writings of the Fathers. Yet, the writings of them which the Magisterium did like are still treated as infallible. So, I suppose nobody's perfect outside of Christ. :)

In the Bible, it is obvious that Virgin Mary was always Virgin, and she only had one child: Jesus Christ, our Savior.

On this I would have to strongly disagree. The Bible names many of Jesus' siblings, and references His sisters. The citations have already been given. As to John being given the care of Mary, John was the one Jesus loved. In addition, he was the only one physically THERE. Jesus' siblings fled with the rest of them. The choice belonged to Jesus, and Jesus Himself was not subject to following any custom.

Saints, Popes, Ecumenical Councils, even the Progenitors of the Protestant Reformation are all wrong.

It's a shame, but they were all wrong. Scripture contradicts the idea of Mary's perpetual virginity. Now, if for some reason it was important to you all that Mary was left-handed, then I would be much less inclined to argue about it. :)

If everyone else who has ever lived is wrong and only you are right, what might that reveal about your ideas?

In referring to "everyone else who has ever lived", you must mean "... except for the hundreds of millions of Christians who never believed that Mary was a perpetual virgin". It reveals to me that I agree with those hundreds of millions, and much more importantly, the Bible.

902 posted on 12/09/2006 4:05:26 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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