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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; Blogger; blue-duncan; ears_to_hear; wmfights; HarleyD; xzins; P-Marlowe
We believe that freely undertaken works of love are necessary for our final justification

But our justification has been finalized. Our justification is complete because it is an act of Christ and not of us. Jesus Christ gave Himself up on the cross and rose from the dead. We have been justified completely and forever by His sacrifice.

I realize this puts certain churches at a loss because then they can't dole out salvation according to their own dictates. But Scripture is clear that all who believe in Jesus Christ have been justified by His atonement, once for all time.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" -- Romans 3;20,28

[we]"...are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood... He did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." -- Romans 3:25,26

"He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." -- Romans 4:25

"...through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses." -- Acts 13:38

"those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." -- Romans 8:30

And as a preemptive thank-you, my "Scripture generator" is working just fine. However, it's more aptly called "Open Bible; Read It." 8~)

5,894 posted on 01/14/2007 10:34:11 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; annalex; Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; Blogger; blue-duncan; wmfights; HarleyD; ...
Alex, I think this is very apropos your previous question regarding my comments on +Paul. Dr. E, and her random verse generator aka Open Bible, proivde us with plenty to work with:

God presented him [Jesus Christ] as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood... [Rom 3:25]

God presented him? Excuse me, but here I read something to the effect that +Paul considers "God" something other than "him."

Now, in various +Paul's works, not all of which are necessarily his, he does say that Christ is God, but how do we know what was really written and what was later added? The phronema of the Apostle here seems to suggest otherwise.

""He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." -- Romans 4:25

I am reading here that +Paul is telling the Romans that Christ was delivered over to death...and raised by some higher authority, obviously, (i.e. God) who, after all, presented him as a sactifice of atonement...

Everything spoken of Christ here is in the passive. None of it is Christ's doing! But in all fairness, even +John uses the same format "This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after He was raised from the dead." It's as if even +John did not think Christ raised Himself from the dead!

I will tell you, I have serious, serious issues with this language and what it seems to suggest. Again, later supposed +Paul's writings seem to negate his earlier Epistles in many ways and I wouldn't put it beyond a possibility that the Church tried to mend some of the more spectacular statements of +Paul's [such as he didn't need to read and learn – it was all "delivered" to +Paul, later copied by Mohammad, personally by God,/cf Gal 1:12/).

Again, none of the Apostles seems to suggest what he suggests all over the place in his earlier works. One that stands out is that he calls Christ "man Jesus." Not Godman, not God and man, just "man Jesus." [cf 1 Tim 2:5]

It is no wonder that +Luke, who wrote acts as dictated by +Paul says "let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead..." [Acts 4:10]

"much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many..." [Rom 5:15]

Here +Paul is separating the grace of God from the grace of man, Jesus Christ.

And as for being delivered 'by God' to His death, Apostles matthew and Mark state that Christ came to give His life "as a ransom for many." Ransom.

5,935 posted on 01/14/2007 9:11:51 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Blogger; blue-duncan; ears_to_hear; wmfights; HarleyD; xzins; ...
It is clear that the justification spoken about in the verses you cite from Romans refers to the perfect sacrifice offered by Christ. It does not refer to the individual final justification of every believer because of every verse that speaks to the necessity of works in the gospel, and specifically Matthew 25, Apocalypse 22, Romans 2, James 2.

This is the program of working out the individual salvation as explained by St. Peter:

3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. 5 And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6 And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7 And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8 For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

(2 Peter 1)

Make sure your calling and election. Read the scripture more, and prooftext less.

6,287 posted on 01/16/2007 12:35:09 PM PST by annalex
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