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To: HarleyD; Mad Dawg; kawaii; Kolokotronis; kosta50; D-fendr; Blogger; P-Marlowe; jo kus
Catholics have abandoned the traditional doctrine of the Atonement for something more modern

That was discussed at length on the Erasmus thread, with the most enlightened participation of Jo Kus.

Your statement is, of course, very inaccurate. We hold that all three atonement theories have complementary merits. They are: (1) atonement as ransom paid the Devil; (2) atonement as pedagogical lesson of love; (3) atonement as delivery of satisfaction ot God for the offense of Adam.

The Orthodox strongly prefer (1) and have sympathy with (2). (3) is the latest, developed post-Eastern Schism by St. Anselm, and that the Protestants inherited from us.

5,440 posted on 01/12/2007 2:11:47 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; HarleyD; Mad Dawg; kawaii; kosta50; D-fendr; Blogger; P-Marlowe; jo kus

" Your statement is, of course, very inaccurate. We hold that all three atonement theories have complementary merits. They are: (1) atonement as ransom paid the Devil; (2) atonement as pedagogical lesson of love; (3) atonement as delivery of satisfaction ot God for the offense of Adam.

The Orthodox strongly prefer (1) and have sympathy with (2). (3) is the latest, developed post-Eastern Schism by St. Anselm, and that the Protestants inherited from us."

Yup, you've got it. #1 is particularly interesting since some see that as a sort of atonement/payoff, perversely, to God! In fact, it was history's biggest scam on the Evil One. What did +John Chrysostomos say?

" Let no one fear death, for the Death of our Savior has set us free.
He has destroyed it by enduring it.
He destroyed Hell when He descended into it.
He put it into an uproar even as it tasted of His flesh.

Isaiah foretold this when he said,
"You, O Hell, have been troubled by encountering Him below."
Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with.
It was in an uproar because it is mocked.
It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed.
It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated.
It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive.

Hell took a body, and discovered God.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see.

O death, where is thy sting?
O Hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!
Christ is Risen, and the evil ones are cast down!
Christ is Risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is Risen, and life is liberated!

Christ is Risen, and the tomb is emptied of its dead;
for Christ having risen from the dead,
is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
"


5,447 posted on 01/12/2007 2:30:35 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: annalex; Mad Dawg; kawaii; Kolokotronis; kosta50; D-fendr; Blogger; P-Marlowe; jo kus
My statement is not inaccurate. I provided references from the Catholic website for verification. No where in your 3 points do I see a sacrificial blood atonement for our sins and you know Catholics no longer believe in the blood atonement because you were the one to bring it up.

You reference St. Anselm in regards to the Orthodox teaching. Please look at New Advent. Catholics claim their doctrine is derived (modified) from St. Anselm as well.

I find Catholics tend to say things are inaccurate when, in fact, they are simply an analysis of their own doctrine.


5,493 posted on 01/12/2007 4:43:53 PM PST by HarleyD ("...even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near Himself." Num 16:5)
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