To: annalex; The_Reader_David; wmfights
Naturally, the usage changed, and it continued to change following the closure of the Canon. To mechanically force the same word as translation across books and timeframes is to introduce confusion not intended by either St. Matthew or St. Paul.
I'm not "mechanically" forcing anything. I am simply going back to the original language to see what it states. While I'm not Professor Henry Higgins, I can read and understand linguistic meanings.
In recent time many words changed their meaning or aquired new meanings nearly obscuring the old.
Nonsense. While English words changes, the Greek never does. If it says "elder/bishop" in the Greek, it still means "elder/bishop". You would like me to think that "elder" really means the priest in today's church. Who does the Pope represent? The High Priest? There is nothing to support any of this. All this is based upon a English contortion of a Greek word. If people cannot figure out the meaning of a word then they can simply look in a dictionary if they're confused. There are many good tools out on the Internet to help one understand. If you wish to take the Greek dialect and manufacture the word "priest" then you can. I don't have a problem with that. After all, the Presbyterians took the same word and called themselves Presbyterians. I doubt if you would agree with that.
Fine. All you did is substitute "elder" for "ancient". Both translations correctly avoid "priest" because St. Matthew did not mean either a Christian priest or a Jewish priest; but St. Paul surely did mean a Christian priest in Titus and Timothy, when the Church was functioning.
I would suggest you're reading far more into this than what is there. If you suppose I wrong then I would suggest the following:
1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the gift in you, which was given you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the body of elders.
This verse, following your application, would suggest there are many priests per church laying hands on people. There are other verses just as confusing with your application. For example we know that Peter called himself an "elder" in 1 Peter 5:1, equating himself with all the other elders. This would effectively eliminate the idea of Peter being head of the Church and support wmfights (and my) contention that the early church was locally run under presiding elders. Paul wasn't talking about "priests" in the Roman Catholic Church. That is a bit of a reach. He was talking about senior members of a church. You can't read anything more into the scriptures than that. Of course, if you want to insist these are priests then you should follow through with the verse:
Tit 1:5-6 For this cause I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed you, if anyone is blameless, husband of one wife, having believing children, not accused of loose behavior, or disobedient.
That puts Catholics in a pickle. Orthodox don't mind saying they have discarded this for greater Church discipline. Are the Catholics willing to say that?
4,938 posted on
01/10/2007 4:49:43 PM PST by
HarleyD
("...even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near Himself." Num 16:5)
To: HarleyD
I'm not sure if I understandd the question. But maybe it's relevant to point out that the Cathoic rule about celibacy for clergy is NOT considered doctrine but rather a matter discipline , and one which permits of exceptions. There are, in fact, married Roman Catholic priests, and there are married priests in rites in communion with Rome.
4,940 posted on
01/10/2007 4:56:06 PM PST by
Mad Dawg
(How many angels can swim the the head of a beer? -- Roger Ramjet, 1967)
To: HarleyD; The_Reader_David; wmfights
While English words changes, the Greek never does Really? Why? This verse, following your application, would suggest there are many priests per church laying hands on people
St. Paul here says that the laying of hands introduced Timothy into the presbytery, that is into priesthood. Or if you want to stick to your linguistic contortions, into the elderhood, -- much sense would that make.
Peter called himself an "elder" in 1 Peter 5:1
No he did not. He called himself sympresbyteros. You translate that, -- you are the one with the dictionary.
husband of one wife
Yes, the Early Church ordained married men into priesthood. Now we don't in the Latin Church. Where do you see a "pickle"?
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