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To: annalex; wmfights; kosta50; Blogger; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg
Hmmm....you've referred us to this post as to what is in scripture about ordination. Here is what you've posted:

What translation is this? According to all the translations I've just looked up, it should be

This is a significant difference. The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably so it's difficult to say what the exact wording is, but it is certainly not priest.
4,822 posted on 01/10/2007 5:39:55 AM PST by HarleyD ("...even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near Himself." Num 16:5)
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To: HarleyD; annalex; wmfights; kosta50; Blogger; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; blue-duncan; ...
This is a significant difference. The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably

From the context of that chapter, and the term presbuteros it is clear that +Paul refers to a bishop. First, presbuteros was used for the Jewish Sanhedrin who are equivalent of bishops. Second, immediately following Titus 1:5, +Paul says that this 'elder' is to be "blameless" and "of one wife" (qualities of priests and bishops defined biblically), and in Titus 1:7 the Apostle says "for it is necessary for the overseer [episkopon, a bishop] to be blameless..." (dei gar ton episkopon anegilon).

So, since a bishop must be ordained priest (being a bishop is a rank within ordained ministry, first rank being deacon, then priest, then bishop), translating presbuteros as priest is perfectly correct.

The source of error is your KJV because it was man-made to be acceptable to the Geneva-worshipping lost sheep. The authors of the book known as the KJV made sure many words were changed so as not to sound "Catholic." That book is also based on a retro-engineered "Greek" text from the Latin translation of the Greek original back into Greek!

And this book has been the pillar of Protestant Christianity ever since!

You see, HD, prooftexting never provides you with a correct answer. It only confuses you. You need to read the whole thing and get rid of that random verse generator, and the KJV. Just a friendly suggestion. :)

4,830 posted on 01/10/2007 6:11:09 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD; annalex; kosta50; Blogger; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg
Hmmm....you've referred us to this post as to what is in scripture about ordination.

Always find your input valuable. :-)

Tts 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: (KJV)

Also, the laying on of hands (ordaining leaders) was after the selection had been made,by the congregation. The point being, the Apostles did not hand pick the leaders of the churches they helped start. They were missionaries. Thus the claim of a special status (Apostolic Succession) of church leadership rests in the "laying on of hands" and the question really is why would the laying on of hands by RC's and EO be any different than that done by other Christian sects?

4,847 posted on 01/10/2007 7:10:41 AM PST by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: HarleyD

Actually, in English usage, 'priest' is used for what in Greek is called 'presbyter'. So, for example, the honorific for senior married presbyters (or, by your leave, since we don't speak Greek, priests), Protopresbyter, is Englished as Archpriest, and even in English translations of the Liturgy, one finds prayers for "the presbytery, the diaconate and all the clergy and the people" just after prayers for the bishop.

'Elder' is a more imprecise translation, since it would more naturally correspond to 'geron', than to 'presbyteros', and 'bishop' would correspond to 'episcopos', so the most accurate translation into English for the word St. Paul used in writing to Titus is 'priest', since that is the English word which applies to the office called 'presbyteros' in Greek.


4,849 posted on 01/10/2007 7:16:15 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: HarleyD; wmfights; kosta50; Blogger; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg

I only quote for Douay, unless otherwise noted. The original in Titus 1:5 says "presbyterous". This can be rather blandly translated as "elder" but in ecclesial usage the word means "priest". The English "priest" etymologically derives form "presbyteros". The use here in the context of ordainment, "katastase".


4,896 posted on 01/10/2007 11:27:55 AM PST by annalex
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