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To: Blogger; Mad Dawg
Nowhere in Scripture are we instructed to pray to people who have died. That is the objection

Well, in the Scripture we are instructed only to pray the Lord's Prayer. Any other prayer could be objectionable as superfluous.

If those who are in heaven are alive, and if the Kingdom of Heaven abides in us, then it is not objectionable.

And you know well that some have taken Marian devotion to the point of worship. Not some, a lot

That's possible, but you will have to provide some credible statistics to back this up. The Church cannot be held accountable for excesses of the individual members, but what the Church backs as doctrine. As far as the Church teaching is concerned, your statement is false.

We simply see nothing like what Marian devotion has become in the Bible or the very early church

Marian devotion appears with +Ignatius, the thrid bishop of Antioch and a disciple of Apostoles (end of 1st century, doesn't get much earlier than that).

One thing is certain though: there are no traces of sola-scriptura "reformers" in the early Church, and for the next 1,400 years.

4,798 posted on 01/10/2007 4:39:11 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Well, in the Scripture we are instructed only to pray the Lord's Prayer. Any other prayer could be objectionable as superfluous.
NO YOU ARE NOT! Jesus' prayer is the model prayer. Later in Scripture there are many instructions to prayer. NONE of them include praying to Saints or any other human. We are to pray to God.
4,799 posted on 01/10/2007 4:42:13 AM PST by Blogger (In nullo gloriandum quando nostrum nihil sit- Cyprian)
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To: kosta50
Well, in the Scripture we are instructed only to pray the Lord's Prayer.

The bible has a lot more to say about prayer than that. One instruction that comes to mind is that against vain repetition, like the heathen.

4,808 posted on 01/10/2007 4:58:18 AM PST by DungeonMaster (Acts 17:11 also known as sola scriptura.)
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To: kosta50
Rom 15...I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God,

Col..Praying withal for us also, that God may open unto us a door of speech to speak the mystery of Christ (for which also I am bound;)

2 Thess... Wherefore also we pray always for you; that our God would make you worthy of his vocation, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness and the work of faith in power;

Eph..By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:

Apoc 5...And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Tob 12...When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. (Angel presents Tobit & Sarah's prayer to God)

MK...And there appeared to them Elias with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. (Ut oh. Jesus was speaking with the dead)

Apoc 6....And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (hmm, dead saints pleading with God)

Heb 12....And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Luke 16.. There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. (a dead rich man tries to intercede for his brothers)

*So, kosta, what IS your necromantic self up to :)

I mean, it is almost as if you take seriously the Communion of Saints part of the Creed.

Πιστεύω εις το Πνυμα το `Αγιον, αγίαν καθολικην εκκλησίαν, αγίων κοινωνίαν, άφεσιν αμαρτιων, σαρκος ανάστασιν, ξωήν αιώνιον. Αμήν.

I am sure those who are ideologically opposed to that truth are silent during this part of the Apostles Creed :)

Romans 8...Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword? (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.) But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

4,813 posted on 01/10/2007 5:13:57 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: kosta50
RADIO REPLIES

1430. Why pray to Saints? Is it not better to pray to God direct?

Net always. The same answer applies here as in the case of prayers to the Virgin Mary, who after all is the greatest of the Saints. God may wish to give certain favors through the intercession of some given Saint. In such a case, it is better to seek the intercession of that Saint as God wishes. I can decide to give you a gift myself, or to do so through a friend. In the latter case you do me greater honor by accepting it from my friend than by refusing my way of giving it to you, and insolently demanding it directly from myself in person.

1431. I pray that you may see the futility of praying to Saints who can do nothing for you. Christ is the only mediator.

By your very prayer you are attempting to mediate between God and myself on my behalf. I do not criticize the principle of praying for others. I believe in that. But I do criticize your praying for me in violation of your own principles. If the Saints cannot be mediators by praying for me, nor can you. Your prayers would be futile; they could do nothing for me; and you would be wasting your time.

1432. The Lord's Prayer shows that God Himself hears our prayers.

Correct. And He hears the prayers we address to the Saints, and their prayers also on our behalf. And those prayers, added to our own, give us additional claims to be heard by God in a favorable way.

1433. When did God tell anyone to pray to human beings?

When the Catholic Church teaches us that prayer to the Saints is right and useful, it is God teaching us that truth through His Church. But the doctrine is clearly enough indicated in Scripture also. I have mentioned Abraham's prayer for Sodom. The Jews asked Moses to go to speak to God on their behalf. God Himself said to Eliphaz, the Themanite, "My wrath is kindled against thee . . . but my servant Job shall pray for you. His face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you." Job XLII., 8. Earlier in that same book we read, "Call now if there will be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the Saints." V., 1. His enemies meant that Job was too wicked to be heard, but they knew that it was lawful to invoke the Saints. Long after the death of Jeremiah, Onias said of that prophet, "This is the lover of his brethren and of the people of Israel. This is he that prayeth much for the people and for all the holy city; Jeremiah, the prophet of God." 2 Mach. XV., 14. St. James says that "the prayer of a just man availeth much." If his prayer is valuable, it is worth while to ask his prayers. If you say, "Yes. That is all right whilst a man is still in this life and on earth," I ask whether you think he has less power when in heaven with God? In Rev. VIII., 4, St. John says that he saw "the prayers of the Saints ascending up before God from the hand of an angel." If I can ask my own mother to pray for me whilst she is still in this life, surely I can do so when she is with God! She does not know less when she rejoices in the Vision of God; she has not less interest in me; and she is not less charitably disposed towards me then. We Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints, and are in communion with them. But for you the doctrine of the Apostles Creed, "I believe in the Communion of Saints," must be a meaningless formula. Christ is not particularly honored by our ignoring those who loved and served Him best, and whom He loves so much.

*Little wonder that the 16th Century Satan's Mini-Me's excised certain books from the Bible. The had to get rid of the Divine Evidence they were lying to their followers

4,817 posted on 01/10/2007 5:30:53 AM PST by bornacatholic
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