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To: Dr. Eckleburg
In my background "to" and "before" mean different things.

In my background the difference between slander and error is knowledge and intention. An ignorant person might say something untrue in error, while a person who is informed would say the same thing but in that case it would be a lie. (This, interestingly is a distinction which is too subtle for Democrats.) Persisting in ignorance is also culpable, but that's another matter.

Similarly the difference between bowing down TO and idol and bowing down in the neighborhood of one while praying NOT to the idol but to God or a saint are importantly different activities. If painted wood were the problem we'd all have to go outdoors to pray, and make sure no painted would or dressed stone was in our line of sight.

If you see no difference between "before" and "to" then do you check around to/before make sure there's no painted wood nearby before/to you kneel to/before tie your shoelaces? How far away from painted wood does one have to/before be before/to it's safe? And would avoiding painted wood count as a "work"?

Somebody said "rend your hearts and not your garments," and others have cautioned against too great a reliance on appearances. But I understand you to say that one shouldn't take people's words seriously so maybe they meant we SHOULD pay attention to appearances and rend our garments and not our hearts. It would be "parsing" to/before pay too close attention to/before words like "genetic", "alchemical", or "materialistically". Once "material" means "immaterial" we have left discourse far, far behind.Is what they really mean, "I don't LIKE it! Make it STOP!"

In fact why let any meaning at all interfere with condemnation of those with whom we disagree? Let's just all give Howard Dean screams. No need for reason, thought, charity, or care -- just pure feeling. Not my cup of tea, but to/before each his or her as the case may be own.

4,639 posted on 01/09/2007 10:45:33 AM PST by Mad Dawg (horate hoti ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon; Jas 2:24)
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To: Mad Dawg; HarleyD; Blogger; blue-duncan; wmfights; Forest Keeper
More hair-splitting if you think there's an appreciable difference between bowing down to someone and bowing down before someone. It doesn't take a post-graduate degree to understand when you bow down BEFORE Mary you are bowing down TO Mary and not to the 'exit' sign or the offering box.

"O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker." -- Psalm 95:6

No need for reason, thought, charity, or care -- just pure feeling.

Yet not so surprisingly, it's you, MD, who exalts feeling over reason, like in your post 4,751 --

"...Fortunately, when I first heard it sung I really could "feel the love.""

Take a step back and realize the smell of the incense, the wooden icons and statues, the bloody wounds, the crown of thorns, the mystical pretension of the mass, all of which you witness and partake every time you enter your church, are the stuff of tactile, emotion-laden, sensory experiences.

"Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.

He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:

And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?

He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isaiah 44:15-20


4,776 posted on 01/09/2007 11:27:25 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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